Episode 38: Peace Mavens Chris Bayot and J’aime Kailani

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. We are here again with another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we speak with extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And I am excited yet again to talk to a couple of wonderful ladies that I know today on the podcast. We're going to have Chris Bayot and Jamie Kailani who are working together on a, an amazing adventure and venture for Mama Earth. And I know Chris from back in the tech world in the SharePoint world, which we'll probably talk about a little bit and I know Jamie through Chris. So, ladies, Chris say hello to everybody. How about that?

Chris Bayot:  Hello everyone. Thank you Heather for having us on. This is wonderful.

Heather Newman:  Ahh, awesome. Jamie.

J’aime Kailani:  Yes. Aloha! Thank you so much Heather. We're honored to be on today.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. So, folks, I've known Chris for a really long time and her family and, we, Chris used to head up the SharePoint Saturday Honolulu. And so we met many years ago doing that. And I have had the wonderful fortune to be a part of that for a long time as a speaker and a sponsor and all kinds of stuff, and stayed with your beautiful family and your home and gotten to see all kinds of wonderful things in a Oahu and Honolulu and all over Hawaii as that's where she lives. And then I got to meet Jamie, last year in the midst of one of those. And then back in the holiday time, For Mama Earth was putting on an event here in Los Angeles. And so I got to see them in action as well. So I, I keep following the goodness of you ladies and what you're doing. And, and Jamie, I know that For Mama Earth was your brain child and I'd love for you to tell everybody about what that is and where it came from and what's going on. So,

J’aime Kailani:  Oh, yes. Well, you know, it started about 12 years ago. Um, and it, it all started from I, I, I'm a jewelry maker too. I love to work with beads and crystals. And I found this bead called a Malachite Azurite. And basically it's a recycled beat. It's, it's bits of Malachite and Azurite that they bond together to make it into this tiny bead that actually looks like the earth. And so, when I saw it, I was like, wow, I've got to do something with this. And you know, during that time, my son was, um, on a gymnastics team and they needed to do some kind of fundraiser. And so I thought, hey, let's make wish bracelets out of these beads. So we just put them on hemp string and you know, when you tie it on, you make a wish and that intention gets put into you know, the world. And, and so, um, it kinda started there. And at the same time I was also booking shows in town here in LA, uh, for my brother. Um, you might know him, his name is Bruno Mars.

Heather Newman:  Uh, yeah, who?

J’aime Kailani:  But I was booking his shows, this was before, you know, the fame and all that. Um, and so we were doing, you know, these small little shows around town and I was really creating some really great relationships with the owners of, of these, uh, these clubs. And so one of the first places was The Temple Bar in Santa Monica, which is no longer there, but it was definitely like one of my favorite clubs, bars that I've ever been to in my life because they, it was just like a very sacred place almost, which is weird to say because it's a bar, but they would have amazing, you know, musicians come through and, and so, um, our first event, you know, I thought, why not make it a charity event? Like we should be giving back. So we ended up doing an event right after the Haiti earthquake and there was an organization by the name of Boo May Say Haut (sp). And they were midwives who went to Haiti after the earthquake to help women give birth. Because as you can imagine, the, you know, the conditions were not good. And so they needed to build a birthing center and they needed a water system. And so at the time, you know, we, we really didn't make that much, but at the door, you know, we made about $3,000 and Bruno played and, and it was kind of like Mama Earth was kind of the way we kind of started getting a following of people, you know, to be, to start to know about Bruno in town and people were coming to our shows and, and so we, every time we did a show, we would donate proceeds to an organization. And so with that one, we were able to help put in a water system. And you know, although it was just a small thing, it really helped, you know, and we, and I realized like, wow, this is like, you don't really have to do that much to, you know, to, to help another. And I'm, and it was fun, you know? So in another way, Mama Earth has become kind of a way to get my creative energy. I'm an artist, so like there's different, I get bored. Like once I'm doing one thing, it's like I have to move on to the next, you know? And so it's a nice way to kind of get that creative energy out and have different projects going. And you know, you know, we have so many different initiatives now. Um, and it's all because I, you know, I mean some people might think I'm a scatterbrain, but I'm just an artist and I'm just trying to find different ways to get that artistic energy out. So, so that is how it all started.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. You know what? I think, you know, there's a quote about like, Salvador Dali, it's like Genius Madman kind of thing. I think that people who are artistic and we, we have many interests, you know, but there always seems to be like a vein that like, or a swim lane that you find that you pick where you can like really like harness that energy. And I think, you know, Mama Earth for you sounds like it was that, which is super cool, you know?

J’aime Kailani:  Yeah. It was, and I mean, for a long time before we, you know, finally honed in on our mission statement, you know, people were like, what do you do? Like Mama Earth? Oh, you recycle, like what do you do? You know, and because of the name too. And really Mama Earth stands, MAMA stands for mothers about making amends, which amend is, you know, to make better, you know. So at first it was, you know, it's, it's um, we use the power of music, art and nature to make a change for the better. So that's what our mission statement is.

Heather Newman:  Fantastic. Yeah. And I mean I have, I put it on this morning because I was going to talk to you both and I have some of your beautiful essential oil as well. So you do that, you know, you have a line that is so great.

J’aime Kailani:  Thank you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That also, you know, and, and what I love about what you do is like you do, when you're doing things, it also benefits somebody else, right? So like the, you know, proceeds from different things. Like you have such a great mind around giving back and sharing and supporting and, and you know, that's obviously this through line through what you all are doing, which is super cool. Um, the, and, and talk, will you talk about the Pride for Philippines as well? I know that there's a connect in there and you're very connected to that organization as well.

J’aime Kailani:  Yes. Chris, you want to tell them about Pride for Philippines?

Chris Bayot:  Sure. I'll jump in on this one. Pride for the Philippines is our newest initiative among many others that we're working on and it is very environmentally focused but also with a very holistic approach. So when you're looking at the Philippines, it's a really important region geographically, environmentally. It is the single most biodiverse region in the world. So it's critical to our earth that this area be healthy. However, at the same time it's also highly polluted and they're the third largest contributor to ocean plastic. Which is hugely significant. So that's one of the key reasons that we're focusing on the Philippines in our environmental efforts. Um, so Pride for the Philippines is about bringing awareness to that region, just how important it is. Helping with existing efforts that are already ongoing to clean up and elevate and clean up the area. But also to take a holistic approach so that as we're doing that, we're looking at the people and the culture. So we're, we're working with a woman by the name of Gina Lopez, who is just doing amazing things in the Philippines. She's going in and she's doing full redevelopment in villages. So she's bringing in an economy, she's cleaning up the environment. She is partnering with what she calls loving organizations. It's organizations who are committed to giving back to the people in that, in that village. And they're contracted with her to do that. So these companies will bring in an economy, they will clean up the area, they will help provide housing, provide jobs, and bring income and sustainability into the region. So it's a holistic approach to cleaning up the environment, cleaning up what's feeding down the rivers and into Manila Bay and giving the people who live in that area a means to support themselves, put a roof over their head and, and come out of poverty. So it's, it's pretty amazing stuff. So with, with Pride for the Philippines, we're really trying to support those ongoing initiatives with fundraising. And we're doing it because we're fortunately connected with some celebrities who can help shine light on the matter. So we're using that star power to bring awareness and get the word out, help support our events. We're providing fundraising events to raise money to help the causes. Jamie, anything else you want to jump in on there with that?

J’aime Kailani:  Um, I, you said that well. I mean, the, the thing I love about it is that she's not, with this project, we're not exploiting the areas. You know what I mean? Because when you hear that, oh, you know, like area development and all that, um, you know, it makes you worry that maybe the culture is being exploited or that we'll bring too many people to the area. But I love the way she's doing it. It's not doing that at all. It's just helping bring families back together. Because I mean, I had an uncle who I couldn't believe, I found this out recently, that he, he moved from the Philippines to Hawaii. And I remember he just was staying with my grandmother, um, for 26 years. He didn't see his family because he had to come to Hawaii to make, make a living so that he could send money back to the Philippines. And, you know, this is kind of a problem. And I mean, this is not just kind of a problem, but it is a problem in a lot of third world countries where families are being broken up because there's no, there's, there's no economy there for them to, you know, to, to support their family. So, you know, I just love the way that Gina is going about it and it's not exploiting the area or the culture, you know, it's just really helping and I think that it's needed. So I'm really honored and grateful that we're able to work on this project with, and the, the, you know, the person who thought of this, his name is Lanai Te Groa. He's from Hawaii. He's an old friend. And you know, I love the way it all came about it. It kind of came up organically, but it's now rolling and it's really happening. And so we're so excited. We've got Leonardo DiCaprio on board. Um, he is one of, um, one of our main supporters.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, and he was there. Got to see him that night.

J’aime Kailani:  Yes. He was. In December at the One Peace event that we did. Yeah. He's one of our biggest supporters.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. You know, I think that, you know, you, you both have, um, it's all about connections and relationships at the end of the day for everything we do. Right? You know, and I think that when you tap into your, your family network and then your larger networks, I mean, that's what it's about, right? And always, you know, people like Leonardo and your brother Bruno, you know, and, and John Valentine, your lovely husband Chris. Who is an amazing musician outright, like the what, the most gigging musician in Hawaii, part of so many things and such a love, you know. Like I swear, you know, John stayed on his way through LA. And you know, I have a guitar on my wall that I can half play, you know, and I'm all like, it's the guitar's fault. You know, and he pulled it down and he's like, (fast guitar playing sound). And I was just like, it's not the guitars fault, you know? But my point is I think, yeah. Like we need to use all the resources that we have in our arsenals to get the word out about making change and about how we can help affect things in the world. And I love it that you are both mindful of that and also doing it a way that's just that super heartfelt and wholehearted, you know, and that's, that's what it's about. Right?

J’aime Kailani:  Thank you. Yeah, it's really about, you know, figuring out what your gifts are and, you know, using that to, you know, to create your, you know, to support yourself but also support others.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. That's so cool. And I know that, um, you have some things, um, you know, actually, you know what? I want to talk about one thing first. So Chris, um, I know that, you know, you've had a pretty major shift in your life and careers and stuff lately and you know, you and I have done many a tech show together and you are a,

Chris Bayot:  Yes, we have.

Heather Newman:  Just like I wear the producer hat many times in the world. I know you've worn the producer hat. So, um, with, with, you know, the transition from, you know, working as a, you know, a SharePoint consultant and business group owner and all of that and, and then moving into this, I dunno, like, how's that transition been for you? I know that, you know, that was a pretty big shift for you recently.

Chris Bayot:  It wasn't huge shift. Um, although working in the tech world prepared me well for what I'm doing now because working in the nonprofit world, it's important to be streamlined and have your ducks in a row because there is never any budget. We got to keep that administrative overhead down. So, so my tech experience really serves me well while I'm working in the nonprofit field. And not going to lie, I'm much happier now. I love, I love what I'm doing. I mean, I enjoyed SharePoint, I enjoyed technology and I had great clients, but my passion is with what I'm, the work that I'm doing with Mama Earth. It's exciting and it's fun. And I really enjoy producing events and that's a big part of what we're doing because we produce our events so that we can raise money for these great causes. And it's, it's a really satisfying way to work. Pay is not nearly as good, but I'm a whole lot happier.

Heather Newman:  Hey, you know what, that balancing act there. You know what I mean? It's like the shift is a good one, I think sometimes. So that's awesome.

Chris Bayot:  That's right. It was, it was a great quality of life shift. And I've got Johnny Valentine taking care of the mortgage, so we're good.

Heather Newman:  Hey, you know what? That's awesome. Yeah. Well, so you both, J’aime, did you, where did you grow up? Here in LA or did you spend, were you in Hawaii?

J’aime Kailani:  No, I grew up in Hawaii. And then I moved to LA when I was 19 or 20. I'm still trying to figure that out. It was right after the Northridge earthquake that I moved to LA. I just realized that yesterday. But anyway, um, yeah, yeah, I've been in LA for a while. I'm actually doing the math. I think I've been in la longer than I was in Hawaii now.

Heather Newman:  Oh Wow. Wow. Yeah. And Chris, you're a, you're a transplant. You're a Midwesterner. Like myself.

Chris Bayot:  Yeah, that's right. I'm originally from Ohio, but I've been in Hawaii for 31 years, so that is definitely home.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it's been fun, you know, uh, you know, getting to know you Jamie, and then get, you know, being able to be privy to your kids and your boys too.

J’aime Kailani:  Aww, thank you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. No, it's been super cool. I mean, you have a really great family.

J’aime Kailani:  Thank you. Yes, I do. I'm really grateful for my family.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And you know, Chris's sons are both artistic and amazing and you know, it's been able to watch, you know, Daniel especially, you know, with his composing and all of that stuff. Like, it's just fun to watch y'all just do your thing. You know, like it's super fun from an outsider's perspective.

Chris Bayot:  Well, you know, we live in gratitude and I think that when you live in gratitude then things just come. So I feel very fortunate. Very blessed.

Heather Newman:  It's super cool. So, um, you have a bunch of wonderful things coming up and so is the One Peace Festival that's happening in June in Honolulu, Hawaii, sort of a continuation of sort of the One Peace sort of, you know, set of events or is it its own thing? Will one of you talk about that a little bit too?

Chris Bayot:  I'll start and let Jamie jump in. Yes, it absolutely is a continuation. Our One Peace events, Jamie started doing, I don't know, five or more years ago, did an amazing job with. And then she allowed me to come in and assist. So now I get to have fun doing it too. But for the Honolulu event, we are focused on Pride for the Philippines and earning proceeds that will benefit Mama Earth programs including Pride for the Philippines. And it's going to go from June the 26th through June the 30th with our big night really being Friday, June 28th. We'll start on Wednesday the 26th with a film screening at the Hawaii State Art Museum and it'll be an environmental film. So you'll have to pay attention to see which one we select. We have, we have three in mind. Um, so we'll be screening a film on Wednesday the 26th and then on Friday the 28th we have the One Peace Festival, which Heather will be very much like what you came to Los Angeles one that Leo attended. So we'll have a pop up art auction. Johnny Valentine will be doing a concert for us featuring the classic music of the 70s, the classic music of Hawaii from the 70s. So for those who are Hawaii folks out there listening, the music of CNK, Call Upon Us, Sea Wind, many more acts. But it's going to be, it's going to be a fun show. That we'll be doing as a part of that. And we'll also be doing film screening. That event is going to take place at Laniākea which is at the YWCA downtown, a beautiful historic building. And we have taken over the whole first floor. So we'll have the auction and a courtyard open with a bar. We'll have a VIP room if you want to hob nob with the celebs, you gotta get your VIP ticket for that and get into the VIP room where we'll have complimentary drinks and pupus, or hors d'oeuvres for those of you who don't know what pupus are. And then the goal is to do a beach cleanup on Sunday the 30th, so that we'll do an active beach cleanup. Now that's not all set in stone yet. We're still working that piece, but that's how we're looking for the festival to shape up over the few days.

Heather Newman:  That's amazing. So and folks we'll put all of this in the show notes, but it's One Peace Festival, June 26th to 30th in Honolulu, Hawaii. I might just have to get myself a ticket. I don't know.

Chris Bayot:  You might just have to. I could put you to work my friend.

Heather Newman:  Always happy to help. That's for sure. That is awesome.

J’aime Kailani:  Heather, you were amazing that night. You just jumped in and, you know you were working, working it and we were grateful for that.

Heather Newman:  Oh, you're so welcome. Yeah. You know, I mean once a producer, always a producer, you know what I mean, with friends and stuff like that. You know, the only time I usually, you know, I'm like no, it's when I'm at a wedding, but you know, even then I can't help myself. Right? You're just always jumping in and you're like, all right, I'll help put the tape on the cards and the gifts. It's fine cause it's going to be a mess if not or whatever. But yeah, no,

Chris Bayot:  And I could say you're welcome to come and attend, but we both know it would never work out that way. Let's just be real.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Let's be real about it. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That's cool. So with the, so the On Peace Festival started five years ago, so how, what was the first one Jamie, and how'd that come about?

J’aime Kailani:  It was inspired by, um, by our late mom, Bernadette Hernandez, Bayot-Hernandez. Um, she was an amazing artist, painter and she really, my older son Marley, he's an amazing artist and he's actually attending Parsons right now in New York. He's in his second year. He's a visual artist and you know, she really believed like, she was just like Jamie, you got find a way to show his work. Like you got to get them out there. She kept saying he's got to go to New York, New York. And I'm like, mom, like, what do you mean New York? Like, what am I going to do with him in New York? You know, I just never understood it. And it's funny, he's actually going to school in New York. So, you know, she was right. Um, but it all started with wanting to somehow show his artwork. And so, um, at the time, my, I had a partner on board, Andrea Miller, who she was amazing and helped organize this One Peace of Festival here in LA. And, you know, it was just a beautiful day of art and music and, um, you know, it was unfortunately my mom never was able to attend. She, she passed away a few weeks before our first event. And so on our first event, we ended up, um, you know, showing some of her artwork and, um, and you know, it just, it was inspired by her. And so it's kind of like, you know, her legacy, you know, and I just, I love, you know, I love, I feel like she's a part of it. So, um, so that's how it started. And, you know, every year we show, you know, Mama Earth has been about supporting, you know, up and coming artists. So we love putting, you know, a very successful artist next to an up and coming, you know, and so it's kind of been like that with music and you know, also with, with art. And so that's, that's what it is. It's, it's a really fun evening full of culture, you know? And Mama Earth events are always sort of full of different cultures and, you know, exciting energy.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Yeah. I love that mandala at the holiday event.

J’aime Kailani:  Yeah, the Wish Mandala. Yes.

Chris Bayot:  Miya Ando is an incredible artist and she donated that to our cause so that, we're fortunate to be supported by some just incredible artists.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Well, and it's so great that you're giving people the opportunity to be seen. You know what I mean? Like that's sometimes really, that's all we ever are looking for is for somebody to be like, I see you and let's put your things out into the world. Right. I mean, that's such a great gift that we can.

Chris Bayot:  Yeah. And along with Miya's Mandalas, we're also showcasing a local Hawaii artist by the name of Jodi Endicott in June. And Jodi does fantastic work with ocean trash. When, when NOAA goes out and does cleanups and they bring all the trash back, Jodi collects a lot of that and she makes these just incredible sculptures. And um, she does mixed media on canvas where she brings in some of the ocean trash to the canvas and her work is just prolific. It's really about, you look at her work and it makes you think about your own plastic consumption and what you're using and how you might change that at the same time you're looking at this really amazing piece of artwork. So she'll be showcased as one of our artists in Honolulu. So I'm very excited about having her work in the show too.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, that's great. I'll put her in the show notes as well. Yeah, that's cool. And you know, J’aime, you just said something that sort of struck me, but it also sort of strikes me in general because of, you know, I, I get to work, I gratefully get to work in the diversity and inclusion space and in technology and sort of in the world. And it's something that's very, I'm very passionate about. And, um, I just, you know, I was just in India, I was just in South Africa and a friend of mine said to me, you know, I think you're being called to travel and called to see the world in a way so that you can talk about it and share it. And I was like, maybe, maybe you're right. I think so maybe I keep saying yes to these things so I can do that. And um, your events, you know, like, I don't know, how do you feel about sort of the world today and you know, we've had this surgence of really important movements happen around, you know, #MeToo and Black Lives Matter and you know, around ocean conservation and everything. Do you both feel a shift? Do you feel that people are searching a little bit more for something like Mama Earth to be connected to, to make a difference? Are you feeling that? Will you talk about that a little bit?

J’aime Kailani:  I do, I feel, you know, times are tough. I think we can say that about, you know, over time there's been so many, you know,

Heather Newman:  Tough moments.

J’aime Kailani:  Decades of chaos. I think, um, I think in a way it is waking up people and people are trying to connect with, just with technology and the way things are changing, it's becoming more and more apparent that people need to connect within and really find what makes them happy and use that, you know, and, and I think that you're right, like people are, are waking up and trying to, you know, to find their way. And I think the thing with, with Mama Earth, I love that we're able to incorporate the arts because that is, you know, I mean it's very connected to culture. And I think what's really needed is, um, is the connection, the connection to keep the connection with ancient wisdom. You know, and we, we have an initiative called Rite of Passage where, um, we're working on a film called Rite of Passage and it's all about, um, you know, a girl who is connecting with her culture. She gets taken out of, you know, where she's from and realizes, you know, that there's this, um, intrinsic connection to, to her culture that she doesn't even understand, but it's there. And so I think that that's, it's kind of happening. Like people are really starting to have pride in where they came from and who they are. And I think it's really important for us to stay connected to that. And um, and so with Mama Earth, I feel like that's what we try to do. You know, we like want to bring everybody into our events and into what we're doing so that everyone can connect in some way. So, um, to answer your question, I think that there is a big awakening happening right now.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I feel it too. How about you Chris?

Chris Bayot:  Yeah, and I think for those of us who are in tune with that need and really feel that pull, for me, it's stronger than ever. You know, I see what's going on around us and I'm concerned by what's going on around us and that really sparks me to move forward and shine the light and share the positivity and do what we can to make a difference. An I'm grateful to have Mama Earth as a means to help make some things happen. But it just, it feels more necessary than ever. And I find that to be a real spark and a real driving force to keep moving forward.

J’aime Kailani:  And I think, I think the thing is like, people, you know, we've done events where, you know, I had, I went on stage, this was in the beginning, this is when it, this is what really triggered me. I went on stage and I introduced my brother and I just thanked everyone for coming and I said, listen, like your $15 that you paid to get in here is actually giving water to someone, you know, for a whole year. You know? And, and I remember I had a few people come up to me, one girl in tears and she was like, God, thank you for what you're doing because I want to do something, but I don't know how, you know? And so like giving, you know, sharing opportunities on how we can give back and making it more accessible I think is important. You know, because people want to do good. People want it to give back. They just, you know, in the midst of your busy life, it's hard. You know what I mean? So if, you know, we have these little events and things that we're doing to help, you know, people can jump in and it makes it easier. And it feels good. I think, you know, it's contagious.

Heather Newman:  Yup. Yeah. No, I agree with you. Yeah. There's a quote on a grave in Westminster Abbey, my dad gave me that quote a long time ago and it was, you know, like, uh, I wanted to change the world, but it was immovable and so I decided to change my state, it was immovable and it gets down to, and it's like, you know what the person I need to change is myself and then I can move my family and my community and my world. And I think you're absolutely right and on point with, it's so noisy. We're so busy. I mean, half the time people go to work, they hate their jobs and you know, they want to, you know, they get home and they need to deal with the children and they're going to soccer practice and all of that stuff. And it's like, who has time to look up which thing should I support and how should I do this? And how should I do that? You know? So, I think being a guidepost or a guidelight with what you're doing with Mama Earth and your One Peace Festival and this film that sounds amazing is, is huge and what, what should be happening in the world. You know what I mean? That's super, super exciting. And so, you both are, you both are busy women and you both have lots of things going on and you have, you know, I would call you both renaissance ladies in a way, you know, because you know, like you were saying J’aime, you've got a lot of interest in all of that stuff. Um, just for everybody else out there, there's a lot of people who I know, you know, like I dunno, I tend to attract a lot of people in my life that are similar to me and that we all are, we've got a lot of things going on and all of that. And how do you, how do you find some, some of that grace and downtime? Like where do you find the work life balance for yourselves?

J’aime Kailani:  I'm still working on that one. But I honestly think, and, and I'm really battling this right now, like, you know, with the times, like there's times where I'm just like, what for, you know? Like, why am I here? And it makes it really difficult to move, like to really honestly move, like get out of bed, you know? And so I, I find that it's important to keep moving in a way of connecting with your inner self and that is through yoga, going for walks and exercising, you know, like it really is important to, to exercise. And I feel like when I am moving my body and my blood is pumping and I'm like, you know, healthy. Um, and putting healthy things in my body because that triggers you wanting to eat healthy. You know what I mean? So that for me, that, that's how I, you know, I find that I'm able to keep a balance, but, but I'm working on it. Like it's definitely a struggle for me.

Heather Newman:  Work in progress, right?

J’aime Kailani:  Yeah. Chrissy, I want to hear yours.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, Chrissy.

Chris Bayot:  Well I agree with everything that you said. I would add to that when I'm out and doing my walks, I'm doing them with my husband. So that's part of my home life balance is we'll take that four mile walk together and that's our catch up time and our connect time. And we work quite a bit together. So in addition to Mama Earth where I'm hiring him and to do our concert, I'm also his manager. So I'm also booking other gigs for him and working on other things. So, so that's literally work-life balance because we live together, we work together and then we work out together and we certainly handle all those things at the same time, which which,

J’aime Kailani:  Which is so romantic.

Heather Newman:  Totally.

J’aime Kailani:  It really is.

Chris Bayot:  Which works for us.

J’aime Kailani:  You guys have like this, the ideal relationship, I really look up to you guys like relationship goals.

Chris Bayot:  Ahh, thank you. I got a keeper, I'm going to keep him around.

Heather Newman:  If his name is Johnny Valentine, he better be bringing the hearts, I guess.

Chris Bayot:  Right? How do you get a more romantic man than Johnny Valentine? I am the luckiest woman in the world. It is always a challenge and there always a lot of things going on. But J’aime, I really think you nailed it with, you have to take care of yourself, you have to keep yourself centered, and then I just take the extra step and, and do a lot of that with my partner.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, sure. No, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's something, you know, I talk to lot of people about it and it's, we all struggle with it. You know, and it doesn't matter how busy you are, it doesn't matter what your job, you can be a CEO, you can be a stay at home mom. You can, it's the same problem for all of us, you know, of taking care of ourselves. Um, so you both, just like, you get to be surrounded and you surround yourselves on purpose with people who are super inspiring, which is wonderful. And you know, Yay. Um, I'm curious about, I'm always curious about sort of like other people in the world or I dunno, Twitter accounts or other people or whatever, or places where you're like, this person either makes me laugh my ass off, educates me on something or just makes my heart sing. Is there, are there people that you can say that this is a person that lights my spark in some way?

J’aime Kailani:  I, you know, I, this sounds funny, but I love like following Snoop Dogg. He is really inspiring. I love, I love Snoop Dogg. So I mean that was the first person that popped in my mind.

Heather Newman:  He is one funny MF let's say that. How about you Chris?

Chris Bayot:  Well, I like the Maven. Not going to lie.

Heather Newman:  Me? Are you talking about me?

Chris Bayot:  You, I'm talking about you.

Heather Newman:  Wow. Thank you.

Chris Bayot:  I know it sounds really cheesy, but the two people that popped into my head when you were bringing that up where you and my husband. Because you're two really positive people in my life and you, everything that you put out Heather, is of a higher nature. There's never complaining, there's never anything derogatory, there's never anything negative. Doesn't mean you don't write about challenges. But when you face a challenge, you face that challenge as a challenge and something to be learned from and something to move beyond and take something away from it. So I find you pretty inspiring my friend Heather.

Heather Newman:  Wow, thank you. I'll slip you that $20 later.

Chris Bayot:  You set that up real good Heather.

Heather Newman:  I guess so, I know. I'm like, more, more, more. That's funny. Thank you Chris. That means a lot to me, so I appreciate that. So, um, so with, so you've got One Peace Festival that's, you know, that's a yearly thing that you've been doing for five years and then, gosh, this film sounds amazing. What, what else is on the horizon? I mean, if that wasn't enough, but I'm sure you've got things brewing. Is there anything you want to make sure people kind of keep an eye out for or?

Chris Bayot:  Do you want to talk about August, J’aime? you want to cover that?

J’aime Kailani:  August. Yes, we're doing actually another little pop up a One Peace. And this will be in San Francisco. Um, and we're, it's around a thing called Asap, a s a p, and a lot of Filipinos will know this, but basically Asap is through TFC. The Filipino Channel, ABS, CBN, they bring about 50 celebrities out to different cities. And they do this big like variety show concert at a big venue. And so, we're going to do like a little pop up dinner with Lanai and a little bit of art there too as well. So that'll be in August. I can't remember the date. Do you, do you remember that?

Chris Bayot:  It's the first week of August.

J’aime Kailani:  We'll have it up on our website.

Heather Newman:  We can put it up in the show notes too, so for sure. That's awesome. Um, so you both, amazing. I, you know, I knew like, it's, it's, so, it's always so interesting, you know, it's like we're friends and you know, and, and I've been getting to know you more too, so like my friend as well, girlfriend. And you know, and, and I love being able to have these, you know, I have these podcasts and I'm always like, wow! You know what I mean? Like you sort of like scratch the surface and then you're like, you're doing all kinds of what, like, this is amazing. So it's really exciting to hear about what you're doing and, and you know, I have one other question. Um, and then we'll, then I'll, then I'll wrap us up, but I guess, um, and it's about kind of where, where you live and where you're from. Like I find Hawaii to be so unbelievably magical. I've been so blessed, you know, I lived in Maui for a little while and I've visited you Chris many times. And, and then I'm a new transplant to Los Angeles and I think Los Angeles is magic as well. I've always wanted to live here and will you both talk about sort of like, I don't know how you feel about where you live and what's awesome about it? I'm always curious about that too. And they're both like, I don't know.

J’aime Kailani:  I'll let you go first, Chris.

Chris Bayot:  Well, I live in Hawaii, enough said.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Paradise. Okay.

Chris Bayot:  It is. You're right. It's, it's paradise. It's magic. It's, I went out there for one year for a one year student exchange 31 years ago. And I cannot imagine living anywhere else. I find the water very healing. I find the energy of the place incredibly soothing. I just, you never get tired of looking around. I never take the beauty of Hawaii for granted. It's just, I just feel so grateful to be there and I'm away at the moment. I'm actually speaking to you from the Midwest, visiting my family and every time I come back from a trip like this and I return to Hawaii, even though Ohio is my hometown, Canton, Ohio is my hometown. When I get back to Hawaii, I'm home. It's truly home.

J’aime Kailani:  Yeah. I feel the same way. Even though I live in LA, like Hawaii will always be my home. There's just this energy there that, you know, this Aloha spirit that you just, you know, it's hard to find anywhere else. Yeah. It's real. And, yeah, for me, LA has been, you know, it's definitely a test. You know, I mean there are so many amazing people here inspiring, you know, a lot of people coming here with you know, dreams and goals and that's really like there's this energy that is whirling around, which I love. Um, I definitely coming from Hawaii, you know, Hawaii is so laid back, it took me years to really get used to the pace of LA. Like I just, I'm like really laid back and it's hard to keep up, you know, you feel guilty because you're not, you know, going out like everyone else is. Although it seems like, you know, it would be, you know, cause it's Southern California and it's sunny and beautiful and you know, people are doing things here. So in that way it's been really inspiring.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, definitely. I feel it, you know, it's like with Hawaii, and even with California, there are places that so many people like go to once or it's like that's their big giant thing, vacation, you know? And like my uncle for example, he always talked about California and he came here, he was an NFL football player, so he came here. But like his entire, you know, garage was decorated in like California Dreaming, you know, and people feel the same way about Hawaii too. It's like that one big vacation that they take with everybody, you know? And it is really a blessing to be able to just to live in these places and get to share out the goodness of them. I feel that way for sure too. Yeah, and LAs a bit of a rat race, you know, for sure. But I do, I think there, yeah, there's a lot of good energy here, but it is something to get used to.

J’aime Kailani:  Yeah, there's so much discovering to, you know what I mean, to be had here. I learned a lot living here. Like, I, you know, I think I woke up to spirituality and a lot of things just by the people that I met, you know. So in that way I was exposed to a lot of amazing people, which I love.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. Well you both are a delight to talk to as usual, so

J’aime Kailani:  Aww, thank you. You as well Heather. I see why you have a show.

Heather Newman:  Thank you very much. Thank you. Well ladies, thank you for being on and thank you for being my friend and thank you for being awesome and doing great things in the world, so I really appreciate that.

J’aime Kailani:  Likewise.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Bayot:  We will look forward to seeing you in June.

Heather Newman:  You know what I, I was like, I can't touch my computer cause it's gonna make noises, but um, you know, I'm going to be on united.com here very shortly. So anyway. Um, well wonderful ladies, thank you so much and thank you for what you're doing in the world. Really.

J’aime Kailani:  Thank you.

Chris Bayot:  Thanks for having us on the show it was a pleasure.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Well everyone, that was another version of the Mavens Do It Better podcast and you can find us on all of those wonderful places out there where you listen to podcasts. We're on iTunes, we're on Stitcher, and we are on Spotify and you can find us at the Mavensdoitbetter.com website. And here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks.

 

Episode 37 Tech and Children's Book Maven Becky Benishek

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast. I am so excited to have a dear friend, a colleague, someone who I just think is the berries on today. We have MVP and author of Becky Benishek on from Wisconsin. Yes. That's where you are today right?

Becky Benishek:  Yes, exactly.

Heather Newman:  Welcome! Thank you for being on.

Becky Benishek:  Ah, thank you so much. I think you're the berries too. I hope you know that. Probably don't tell you enough but I will from now on. You're absolutely wonderful. Thank you.

Heather Newman:  Well, Yay. So, so Becky and I have known each other for a while now and I've gotten to know you on so many different levels. I'm like God, where to start because you're a maven of so many things, you know. Which is awesome.

Becky Benishek:  I'm okay with you saying that. Thanks.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're welcome. Well, awesome. Well, maybe we'll start with the, the technology side of it. So, you know, Becky is also a Microsoft MVP in the Office space and gosh, how long have you been an MVP? Let's start there.

Becky Benishek:  Three years now. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Right on. And tell everybody kind of how you got started with technology. Maybe let's go back. Let's go back a little bit.

Becky Benishek:  Let's go back a little bit. A little with the time-lapse is going back. I think it actually, it started in, let's see, several companies ago as these things usually go where I kind of worked my way up to this wonderful mix of marketing and IT. So I kind of like to call it recreational IT cause it's, it's, for me, it's all the fun stuff. You can be creative and analytical at the same time. You can do some fun coding and at the same time, you know, deliver things that, that make people feel good, good design. I like doing things like that. I like helping people. I like getting them what they need so they can just get on with their day because usually that's what people want. They're like, what, you know, it's the other side of what's in it for me, it's like, all right, I need a resource. How can I get this? How can I keep moving? So it's only really looking back, because at the time, I had no idea I would end up where I am now. Moving through social media to online community management. So it's wonderful to look back and see all the steps that, that prepared me for this. I mean, I'm an English major, you know? When I graduated college, I never would have thought I'd be doing this. Of course, it didn't actually exist then either. So, you know, there's that, it's just amazing. You never know how you're going to end up.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. So many of us, you know, that I talk with and you know, a lot of us came from the arts or BAs and all of that, and we're like, oh, now we're in technology. You know what I mean? So much to my chagrin of my theater degree, you know, I use it every day. But yeah, absolutely. Well tell everybody a little bit about the Crisis Prevention Institute because that's a really amazing thing and a place that you're working. Will you tell everybody about that and what that does a little bit?

Becky Benishek:  I'd be happy to because you're right, it is a real feel good place and that's, it's inside and out. So it's pretty cool. Uh, okay. I'll give the nutshell version. We are a training company, train the trainers. So we'll come to you, you can train to become what we call a certified instructor. And, um, you will then take our techniques back to your staff and train them. So it's basically keeping the children and adults in your care safe. These are nurses, teachers, security guards, human services, any role, you interact with people. If you think, you know, I'm just in an office building. Yeah, well you're probably interacting with people. There's people that come in, coworkers, bosses, et Cetera. We've just got a lot of skills, verbal de-escalation techniques, nonverbal techniques, just to kind of prevent challenging or even violent behavior. So, you know, you know best the population that you're serving in your facility or district, you know the challenges and now you have these tools to help and it goes beyond putting a band aid on something because, you know, then behavior will keep happening. We, we try to help you get to the core of what's causing it so you can really help somebody.

Heather Newman:  Wow. And is it really mostly in the Wisconsin area? Cause I know you're in, you're in Milwaukee or you know, at least the business is in Milwaukee, but is it, is it there, is it more statewide, global? Like how, how does that work?

Becky Benishek:  We are actually global. We've got a UK office, Australia. I know we're looking into, um, I want to say Singapore and a few other areas though I will say that, you know, a lot of our business is, is North America.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah. Wow. That's super cool. Yeah, I knew I knew the name and I knew that's where you worked and stuff, but I didn't know a ton about it. That's super cool. What a great company to work for.

Becky Benishek:  It's very person centered. I love it. And it's reflected inside too. I mean we, uh, we started out in 1980 and they're small and now we've grown to mid-size and we still have all company meetings every Thursday where any staff in the office comes to this big room where we go around and if you have something to say you can share. And it's pretty cool. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  That's super awesome. Wow. And you know, I know you from, you know, the Microsoft world and you know, like first of all, Becky is an amazing speaker, first of all. So I know that you do that a lot too. How long have you been out in the speaking circuit?

Becky Benishek:  I would say that it all coincides with becoming an MVP. So, I really have Microsoft to thank for that because you know, first the whole just becoming an MVP because you know, when that lands on you just think wow, you know, cause you're just doing your thing. And at the time I had no idea any of it was being noticed outside of what I was focused on. You know, I mean, I was out there in the Yammer communities at the time, but I was, to me, it was just well people help me. So now here's something I can jump in and, and help someone else because hey, I've just been through this and I didn't think anything other than that. But then to realize that, oh, now all of these opportunities kind of land in your lap you know. There's MVP community days, there's user groups, there's Ignite. It's, it's really cool and, and it just makes you feel really good because now you can maybe reach other people and you can get feedback from them instantly too, and help them and learn from them. I love it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's a big part of the community is that, you know, we learn from each other, you know, and, um, it is such a, I feel like everybody is super generous too. You know what I mean? Um,

Becky Benishek:  I do too. Yeah. Like it's a whole room full of friends, even if you haven't met them yet.

Heather Newman:  Right, exactly. Yeah. There's that belonging sense you know that you're like, I'm a part of this. And, and I think it's also very wonderfully kind of inclusive in that, you know, its customers, its partners, it's, yes, it's the MVP community and all of that stuff, but it's, it's wider than that, right. Because we're all talking to each other on various forums, on Yammer, on Teams, up on Twitter, on all of that stuff, right.

Becky Benishek:  Everywhere.

Heather Newman:  Everywhere. For sure. Yeah. And you came up and you came up doing social media, yeah?

Becky Benishek:  Yes, yes. Um, uh, when I, in the several companies ago job, um, when I moved on from there social media is really starting to take off. So here I came from the marketing IT mix and social media seemed like the next natural step at the time. So I really got my chops there as, as they say. You know, learning how to talk to people like they're people and like you're a person too. I mean, that was a whole new thing versus all the corporate speak you're used to seeing on websites, for example. And blogs and things and that, I just love how that whole movement just shifted and acknowledged that, you know, you're, you may be looking at a screen, but you are reaching an actual living being,

Heather Newman:  Hey, wait! There's human beings.

Becky Benishek:  You're one too, so you may be hiding behind a logo, but you can't talk like you're a logo.

Heather Newman:  Right, right. That's a great point. You know, like I think we talk a lot about humans and tech and humans in the world and that, you know, you can't create in a silo, you know, that at the end of the day they're human beings behind the screen, like you said. That's, yeah, that's super cool. Any, um, social media, I mean, so since you did that any social media trends that you're seeing that you're like, Ooh, interesting or Ooh, oh no. Or you know, any, anything that like, you know, as of late that has pricked your ears up I guess as it were.

Becky Benishek:  I can say Currents has pricked my ears up and I'm probably gonna just do a Beta of that. I want to see what that's about. Google Plus's answer to re-Google Plusing itself. I guess you could say, you know, that's pricking my ears up a bit. I'm also looking in, I'm just idly perhaps for my own benefit, just any alternatives to the big major players. The Facebooks and the Twitters.

Heather Newman:  And say the Google name again. Spell that for me.

Becky Benishek:  It's Currents. So like, yeah, like ripples in the water really, I think. There are offering Beta access right now, so going to see if I can get in. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Okay. Very cool. And you know the, I'm looking at over here on my desk, a copy of The Squeezer.

Becky Benishek:  Oh, my goodness! I love it!

Heather Newman:  I sent that to a bunch of children in my life. And so sort of hearkening back to the arts, I guess, or an English degree. How many books do you have out, children's books do you have out now? It's a couple, right?

Becky Benishek:  Ah, my fourth will be out in June, late June. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And how did that, I mean obviously you were an English major, so it sort of makes sense, but you know, as far as like why children's books, how did you get into that?

Becky Benishek:  Oh, my goodness. Well I've always been a writer, you know, and growing up I was always writing little stories or class or scribbling, I still have note books. You know how it is. You got note books, you got scraps of paper, envelopes, napkins, anything you can find. I collect them. I stuff them in bigger notebooks and tell myself I want to go back to them and sometimes I do. Uh, you know, I think. But, I um, I hadn't actually, I always wanted my books and stories out there, but I hadn't actually done anything about it, hadn't really focused on it. Um, but then I want to say it was in late 2015 I finally started thinking, all right, I got to do something. Just anything just to it. And so I started getting my stories in a proper format. I got an editor off of fiverr.com I love Fiverr. You can find amazing things there. Got a couple of them illustrated. Those are, these are the ones that I ended up self-publishing. Um, but you know, in the beginning I did look for agents and publishers. Uh, because that's what, that's what you did. And, but you know, I wasn't getting bites. You got to have a thick skin or you develop one real fast. Well, you know, this just didn't find the right person yet. Keep trying. So I wasn't really discouraged but I also kind of also wasn't doing anything about it. I was kind of just letting months go by. And then finally, December, 2016 I will never forget, I was at a Yule party at a friend's house and our host described a ceremony he wanted to do. We sat in a circle. He was brandishing a bottle of homemade strawberry mead. And he said we're going to pass this bottle around the circle three times. For the first round talk about something you're proud of accomplishing this past year. The second round, thank or commemorate a person living or dead. Third round, make an oath for something you're going to do in the next year. And that's when it crystallized for me. The third round I said, I'm going to publish my first children's book in Q1 of 2017 I actually said it like that. Been in the working world longer and I was Q1. I was going to self-publish it. I was going to learn from it I was going to get it out there. And that's exactly what I did. Um, and then I followed up really quickly in, in February of Q1 and just, I don't know, I was just all antsy. So, I learned, I learned so much, still have more to learn about self-publishing and publishing in general. But again, just like with Microsoft and, and Yammer and Teams, there's so many great people who have done what you did. And they're happy to help. And also, you can also just search and all that information’s there in front of you so that you can get going. You can get your own answers. But when The Squeezer came along, I was still working on other stories and I'd actually sent The Squeezer out cause I thought well why not? And if nobody picks it up then I'll self-publish it too. And I actually forgot it was out there cause my focus goes away again. You know, I still have my full time job and life and everything. And um, I got this email one day and it had, it had, you know, the, the subject line re: query and all you have to, you have a certain style that you send out queries to agents and publishers. So I thought, oh it's another rejection. I'll look at it later. And I looked at it and my eye's saw and my brain took a bit to catch up and there was an author's contract attached. Well that's not something I'm used to seeing. So, after I got over that, I think Dave, my husband Dave has a picture of me cause he was in the room, he has me just like. He looked up and he's like, something just happened. So a publisher picked it up so I was just over the moon.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Wow. And a lot of your books, you know, Dr. Guinea Pig George, and What's At the End of Your Nose, A Slippery Bill Tale. Like they have this, um, seal on them. The Reader's Favorite Fivestars. Will you talk about that? What does, what does that mean?

Becky Benishek:  Ooh, well I'm happy to, well, especially when you're self-publishing or even doing traditional publishing and either way, you don't have a lot of money. And, but you still want to have something that signifies to somebody who doesn't know who the heck you are but they see you at a, at a craft fair or maybe you get your book out in the library, something, that you know, you're not the only ones saying, Hey, get my book. You've got the seal and readersfavorite.com. You can pay if you want to, but they offer free reviews. I think there's something like a 60% guarantee that if you apply for a free review you'll get it. So it's pretty good odds. And, and uh, they award up to five stars. You get up to five stars and you have the option to buy the stickers, which I did because I thought, heck, you know. And then you put them on yourself. You know, it's all verifiable because there's also a page that they keep on their website as well. So, yeah.

Heather Newman:  Wow. You know, it's a funny, I keep listening. I always think this when I hear you speak and when we talk because you know I'm from the Midwest as well and like I, you know, I just, I've always thought you are wonderful but, but like I think it's also because you sound like my people, you know? You do, you know what I mean? It's like my cousin, I mean I'm from Michigan, but my cousin lives in Wisconsin and I just, every time I hear you speak, I'm always like, oh, there's like some comfort there that I'm like, oh my people, you know?

Becky Benishek:  All the imagery, the full sensory experience just comes at you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no kidding. It's so funny. So, and with these, so I think I find the whole thing super interesting as far as the self-publishing piece of it. Um, and you, so you have, you obviously work with an illustrator right, on these cause they're children's books, which, you know, precludes like having some visuals. Um, and I, you know, you have, um, Kelly and, and I think it's Matt and you know, um, and Alicia now, you know, with other folks with Hush Mouse that's coming out. Um, how did you, how did you find your illustrators and how, how does that, how does that sort of relationship work?

Becky Benishek:  I think it's pure serendipity at some points. Kelly Klein, she's a friend of mine and who's a biology teacher during the school year, but she also, it's, she's marvelous. She, she'll be the first to say she doesn't think she's an illustrator at all, but if you look at what she can do, come on, get your stuff out there. So in the summers, um, you know, she said, sure. She's like, I, I think you're one of the people who will actually do something with this and go places, which I found really cool. I didn't know she thought that, you know, so she um, did you know, Sydney Snail for What's at the End of Your Nose and then I was looking at George, which is actually a story I wrote in 99', I just unearthed it and brushed it off and pushed it out second. Can you also draw a guinea pig? So she researched how to do guinea pigs and make them look, you know, like an actual guinea pig and marvelous to work with. Um, and she was one of the, I loved how she did the black and whites for Sydney so much I decided just to keep them that way and double it up. If kids want to color it in, it lends itself perfectly to that. It's just so evocative. Her expressions are just amazing for those little critters.

Heather Newman:  That's super cool. I mean it's, it's, it's then a book but it's also then a coloring book if you so choose. Right. So,

Becky Benishek:  Right, exactly. For The Squeezer's a little different since that got picked up by the publisher. I thought all right, The Squeezer if that's going to lend itself to just full body, full color kind of thing. And it was during the school year as it were. But I happened to work with Matt Fiss, at CPI at the time. He was one of our graphic designers and I'd seen him draw amazing things including monsters and I that you're the kind of person you can make my squeezer come to life and he totally did. Cause he loves monsters, he liked the story.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And is Hush Mouse also through the same publisher or are you self-publishing that one?

Becky Benishek:  I was going to, I thought I'd actually started doing that one in tandem while we were getting to The Squeezer ready. But then I asked, the publisher said, do you, do you want this one too? She's like, yes. So I thought okay cool. We'll go through the publisher then and I found the illustrator through Instagram. I was following some illustrators and thought I love how she does children and, and animals. And so she liked the plot and got her all signed up with the publisher and that's how that alchemy happened. It was amazing.

Heather Newman:  The power of social media, right. And being able to see other people's work that they're putting out.

Becky Benishek:  Look at this, coming full circle. You're so right.

Heather Newman:  It's super cool. So interesting, you know. So you said, uh, George, Dr. Guinea Pig George. Let's be clear. That one you wrote in 1999, Huh? Isn't it interesting how like I, I tell ya, you know, like I'm, I've been trying to figure out how to get myself writing the book that I have in my brain and that's on a big, giant sticky note on my closet that I look at all the time. And, um, it's, it's interesting. I know, I know, but do you find that like, I dunno, just like anything else, if you're a writer, what should you be doing? Writing. Right. Um, and right all the time and if you're a swimmer, swim, you know, whatever, all of that stuff. But isn't it interesting how like trying to find your voice sometimes. Um, and also like the fear of putting things out, you know, I dunno, like I go through that and I've gone through that and with that, was it something that you wrote and you were like not ready or, you know, if I dig a little in there, do you mind? Like, I'd love to share that.

Becky Benishek:  No, you can dig. I think they are very valid points. I think, I think George had just been a victim of my lack of gumption, I think for, you know, I was focused on other things and kind of had, I don't know if forgotten is the right word, but lifelong dream to be a writer, but I wasn't doing anything about it. And to me and my mind every time I'd said writer, it was kind of synonymous with author, just growing up. And it just hadn't anything. But now I had my, my little snail book going out and like, well, what about George? You know, he was your first.

Heather Newman:  George crept into your dreams and was like, Hey, remember me?

Becky Benishek:  You've got the voice for it. Like, Hello, waving a small paw. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  You made me snort. Sorry, everybody. Anyway. That's so funny. That's so cool. Um, yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah. So, and you know, gave you a paw and said, remember me, right? So

Becky Benishek:  Right. Well I want to hear about your giant sticky note. I can't help it, I'm very curious.

Heather Newman:  Oh yeah. My giant sticky note is, um, uh, the working title of it has been Spark for a long time, but my, my interest is in moments that it's a, it's a lot to do with the podcast, to be honest. It's, it's that I really enjoy people's stories about what sparks them, what moves them to action, and that there's moments in our lives that we really pay attention to because they're big. And then there's moments in our lives that are micro moments, but that truly can be just as large as graduation, marriage, divorce, death, all that stuff. But we gloss over them sometimes. And so it's looking at how to maybe recognize those more and or categorize things. And so, yeah. So I've been, it's been a while. I've been working on it sort of for a while, and then sort of let it go and similar, you know, where I'm like, I'm busy, I'm traveling the world, I'm like doing, you and I do similar things. We go speak at conferences and we write blogs and we put together community events and blah, blah, blah. You know, so, um,

Becky Benishek:  Yeah. And it's fun. I mean, it's fun and it's easy to say, well, I have another day. I can do it another day.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And I dunno, I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote that's about, you know, um, an idea not realized, you know. You know what I'm talking about? I can't think of it right now, but it's like,

Becky Benishek:  It sounds very tragic, I think. I know the one you're thinking of.

Heather Newman:  I know. And it's like, you know, it's like it sits there and then nothing ever happens or you don't take action or move forward with it. And it's sometimes it's something about maybe they die on the vine, you know? Um, yeah.

Becky Benishek:  Well, you've got the back of your book blurb now already done. So there you go.

Heather Newman:  We just worked it out right here. Thank you. Credit to Becky on that one, for sure. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And I guess so like, um, I, well I've been having lots of sort of, um, you know, both technologists and makers, you know, on here. And I think if you were in, I don't know, I think they just lend themselves together so nicely. And, um, for some, for our listeners, um, will you talk about sort of the difference between self-publishing and having a publisher and what that's meant and, and not necessarily what you liked better or whatever, because it's not, it's not, they're not even equitable in that way, but you know, like maybe some lessons learned or, I dunno, like just will you talk about that a little bit?

Becky Benishek:  Sure. I think in the beginning I'd approach self-publishing the way perhaps others do. Like there, there might be a stigma about it. It's like, oh, you couldn't get a publisher you're doing it on Amazon. Just like everybody else. And I had that stigma because you want to be a publisher and, or an agent means you've been accepted, in a way. There's still that. I've come to find out self-publishing and Amazon has made it super easy. When I started it was with Create Space and now they've kind of moved to a kindle publishing, which also does paperbacks for example. So, you can have your online and paperback at the same time, but all the control is with you on self-publishing. I mean that does mean all the marketing and, and trying to get all savvy with everything. But you control, up to a point, you can control the costs, you can control release everything from design. Hopefully you get an editor. I think that's one of the biggest stigmas for self-publishing as you will see so many manuscripts out there that have been published with typos and egregious mistakes. And I mean one or two. Sure. I mean, I've even seen them in proofs coming back from the publisher. It's like some something had happened between what you sent and what gets printed. And then then you panic and say, oh, we've got to get it corrected. With self-publishing, it's all up to you. If you want to do a hardcover for example, then you have to go with Ingram Stark for example they'll do that, but then you know that's every cost. It's all you. But there's also such a wonderful community of independent publishers or indie publishers, you call them. There's forums on goodreads.com. There's Facebook groups. You could still join Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators as an indie. Yeah, so there's resources. It just, it takes a lot of work and you find yourself wanting to hire a marketing manager or somebody else. Even if you know how to do it yourself, just because all you really want to do is just write. But now you have to do all these other things and that is, it is. That's the hard, that's the hardest part I would say is all the other things.

Heather Newman:  Right, right. And those are all the other things that a publisher would handle for you then? Right?

Becky Benishek:  Right, right. It depends, you know, if they're small or just starting out, not the vanity publishers, that's different. But you know, the small houses, which are fun to get into. That's what McLaren Cochrane is. They're out in California because they're building their author stable. I shouldn't call it the stable but I just did. Their author stable and so, you know, those are, those are the ones you can try to get into and then they take off and then, hey, you're there. And they like looking at your stuff. They always, they always consider submissions from their current authors before anyone else. So that's cool. And then the bigger ones, it just depends. It goes up with how much money and personnel they have to do all that marketing. But I have seen, I want to say, I don't remember exactly which ones I saw this in but a lot of them will say, well how do you plan, you know, if we take you on, how do you plan on using your presence? Do you have a presence already? What work are you going to do? Cause they, it's, it's no longer a sit back and, and you know, let the mailbox money come in, you really, you still have to work at it.

Heather Newman:  Right, right. No, that makes sense. That's interesting. And I, um, I was looking, I was poking around on Amazon and you're publishing site and I saw something that caught my eye and I want to ask you about it. And with The Squeezer Is Coming, which is a great book everybody and kids love it. And the message is amazing. And I want to talk about that in a second too. But I saw that you have a dyslexic edition with the dyslexic font and I would love for you to talk about that. Cause I was like, what does that mean?

Becky Benishek:  It was something that I hadn't, you know, known about until this publisher picked me up. McLaren Cochran they, um, the, the owner, Tonya and I talked with her on the phone. When you're going over the contract, it's very important to her that not only kids are able to read, kids with dyslexia are able to read these books, but that if parents have dyslexia, they are able to read to their kids. So every book that they, that they publish, they will always make a dyslexic font version as well. So I think it's just Dislexie. It's like an I-E, it's a font that they use. The cover will be a little bit different. I think they're really careful not to have, um, words being obscured by design. They just want to make sure everything's clear, that the wording I have, I have a couple of copies of them. Slightly different type. I just thought, that's so cool. What a nice, what a nice thing? I mean, yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Way to be inclusive and think about, you know, all people who might want to, you know, read a book or you know, that's amazing. And you have, and the, you have them all on kindle editions as well too, Huh?

Becky Benishek:  Yeah. Definitely my two self-published ones I did those. And uh, now the publisher said they are going to be getting kindle versions of all of their books too. And also they said there's a, I think I want to say it's called little hands, I might have it wrong. They're also going to publish a version that's like sized a little bit differently so that you know, little kids can hold the book themselves.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's super cool. Well, and there's all kinds of things that you have to think about with children that maybe you aren't, you know, one doesn't necessarily think about when you're publishing for an adult. Right? Yeah. Have you ever thought of um, like doing like, you know, like I just did the little guinea ba-ba-bah, you know, or whatever. Have you ever thought of doing them on audible and having voices behind them? And having, does Squeezer have a, or whatever, you know, or whatever it is.

Becky Benishek:  You are hired, I would hire you for the Squeezer. You've heard it here folks. This is a verbal contract but it's real. That's awesome.

Heather Newman:  Oh my gosh. Well, well, all right. Anyway, but have. More ideas throwing on the podcast. But I think that would be cool though, right?

Becky Benishek:  I'd love to or, and even like a, I don't know, an animated version. I think he'd be awesome animated. I just, you know, again, I'm in the, well, you know, I've, I've got these other things I'm focused on and I want to do this. I just need to doggonit, stop thinking about it and do it. And that's, that's the biggest thing is, is forgetting everything but just doing it.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah. Well, and it's like when you create something, right, and with my marketing hat on, right, that you create something and you know, people will put out a piece of content or put out, you know, a certain thing and then it's like, okay, have you sliced it and diced it in every way, shape and form possible. You know, like that one piece of content becomes like these 15 small Instagram posts or it becomes the infographic, or it becomes the leader for an eBook or, you know, or it becomes the audible version with funky voices. Or then maybe someone would want to animate it and turn it into a, you know, a cartoon on the whatever network kind of thing. You know, like it's, but, but also those things take time and energy. Like who do I ask and how do I do that? And you know what I mean? It's like, are there enough hours in the day to figure that kind of stuff out? You know, but, but I think it is interesting that, I mean, you have this beautiful content with like such a great message that I don't know, the world is your oyster in a way.

Becky Benishek:  I've just written myself a note on a notepad. That says audible by Q3.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Well, and you know, we'll talk later about this, but you know, I've been doing stuff with Comicon and it'd be interesting to talk to some folks over there about Squeezer. I think it lends itself so interesting too, like what would be a really cool cartoon, you know? Um,

Becky Benishek:  I think you're right, yeah, I can, I can see it in my head. I just gotta get it out of my head.

Heather Newman:  I want to go back to, I want to talk, your message, um, because I haven't read, Dr. Guinea Pig, but I've read Squeezer and I know you and I also read that book and will you talk about the message that you're conveying in these books? Because I, you know, they're very heartfelt and they're very much about, I think learning and teaching kids and their parents about a lot of the sort of beautiful things about say, belonging and you know, being nice to each other and that kind of stuff.

Becky Benishek:  I'll start with, I'll start with my first one and just work my way up. So, What's at the End of Your Nose was Sidney Snail and he's, you know, he's bored. He's going to leave town in search of adventure. But unfortunately his friend, mysterious old Samuel Snail says, take a last look around and he puts it as, find out what's at the end of your nose first. And Sidney's puzzled of course. Then he goes snailing off, you know, and, and through this as he, he just kind of uncovers this whole world that's been there the whole time. But he's been just too bored, you know, he just, he's been looking too far ahead and he hasn't noticed anything. And so, through that I kind of hoping to show children if you think about our world today, we are so inundated with things coming at us, things to do, we're almost passive. And so what if all that gets too much? You know, you get information overload or maybe there's a power outage, you know, anything. Either you cut yourself off or you're cut off cause you just don't feel like. And suddenly, what are you going to do? You know? And, and sometimes what you can do is right in front of you you've just been missing it. So I was hoping to kind of reawaken, you know, a world of adventure right in front of you, whether or not it's snail sized, um, you know, trying to show that, but hopefully in a fun way. And with Dr. Guinea Pig George, that one, I mean he, guinea pig named George lives in a house with a person named George and the person named George is a doctor. So every time the phone rings and someone says, George, it's for you. The guinea pig would think they meant him. And I made this doctor a little old fashioned. He makes house calls and he's very absentminded. He's always leaving his bag open on the floor and the guinea pig is able to get out of his cage cause it's a low to the ground and trundle over and go into the bag and go with the doctor on his house calls and he listens and he learns about everything and he thinks he's a doctor too. And he's able one day to actually show what he can do during a very unexpected house call. So that was about, you know, believe in yourself, kids. Your dreams may seem out of reach. Someone may be telling you can't do something. You sure can. You know, if a guinea pig can do it, you can do it. Yeah. So now I come to The Squeezer and there you've seen him. He's this monster. Scary looking monster, those sharp claws and the teeth and the horns. And he just comes running in all over the place in a town. But all he wants to do is get hugs. But nobody thinks that's all he wants to do. He's got teeth and claws and big greasy toenails and he's just, he's scary looking. Everybody runs away and he is so sad because he can't help how he looks. But everyone's judging him on appearance. So you know, he sits at home and he thinks of all what to do. He tries to read the self-help books, I'm Okay, You're Decaying. He watches Game of Bones on TV. It doesn't help all this stuff. And he finally gets an idea. He's like, it's not about what I want. It's about what the other monsters need so he concocts a plan. He goes into town the next day and he just starts helping the other monsters. He doesn't do it with any thought of gain for himself. He just sees someone needs help. He goes in and helps and everyone's just starts getting amazed. And word starts going around that he's actually a nice guy. He may look scary, but he's not scary at all. He's got a good heart. So things turned around for him. And so it's kind of like a dual thing. It's like, well, what can you do that's in your control? And I know it's super hard for kids to even conceive of that. So an adult would help with that. But also it's like, don't you know, maybe don't judge someone who looks a little bit different than you. Maybe you look beneath the surface.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. And Hush Mouse.

Becky Benishek:  Hush Mouse that one was really, I mean they're all special, I'm going to say that one's just the, maybe cause it's my newest baby. I got really tender feelings toward it. So, Mouse, uh, is a kitten. It was actually based on a real cat that we had who meowed a lot all the time at 3:00 AM up the stairs anytime. And so, we're all saying Hush Mouse cause he had a lot to say. The Mouse in this book, a little kitten hadn't grown into her ears yet. Uh, and she's meowing all the time. She's meowing at her family trying to eat breakfast, watch TV or go to sleep. Everyone says hush Mouse except for Little Liz, she's the only one in the house who understands Mouse. She's short for her age. She can't reach like cookies on the counter without standing on tiptoe. Her arms are kind of stubby, she can't climb onto chairs are laps without help. Um, she's got big brown eyes and curly brown hair and her people say she hasn't grown into her eyes yet, so it's kind of cute. But you know, she and Mouse spent a lot of time together because nobody really hears what Little Liz has to say either. So, you know, so she knows what it's like not to be listened to. And then one day Little Liz is taking her nap and Mouse is in the living room. She's sunning herself and suddenly there's a clang and a thump coming from the kitchen and Mouse says people don't make sounds like that. So saying meow. And of course, everyone in the house is saying hush Mouse except for Little Liz. She'd heard Mouse, woke up from her nap. She comes down the hall and she says, she's whispering, she's like, what's wrong Mouse? And Mouse says meow. And the Little Liz says, that's what I thought. Let's go see what's happening. So they creep to the kitchen and they appear around the doorway and they see burglars and they're filling sacks with all of grandma's prized china. And then there's cat burglars taking Mouse's tins of tuna. And everybody has masks on, these cat burglars. I mean, when you see them, there's just the cutest thing. But no one has noticed Mouse and Little Liz because they are too small and they're creeping down by the door. And Little Liz says, Mouse there's only one thing to do. And Mouse knew she was right, so she takes a deep breath and she swirls up her little belly and her eyes are screwed shut and her ears are flat against her head. And she lets out the biggest MEOW ever. And it just scares the burglars. They drop everything, they dash out through the open window and her people come running, you know, like you saved us from being robbed. And so now when Mouse and Little Liz have something to say, everybody listens.

Heather Newman:  I love your brain! So Great !

Becky Benishek:  I appreciate you letting me just spew out about him because it's fun to do.

Heather Newman:  Oh yeah, no and they're awesome. I mean they, they're just lovely. So that's so cool. Oh my goodness. Yay. Well everybody, also, everybody, we'll put all the links and stuff, um, in the show notes to make sure you know how to get ahold of Becky and look at her wonderful books and buy her wonderful books and give them to all the kids in your life because it's super important. And also, where, where are you going to be next, speaking?

Becky Benishek:  Gosh, I don't even know. I'm already looking ahead toward November cause that's Ignite. I think I'm going to see, I know, Larry Glickman. And I try to try to do a user group, we call it the Midwest user group. It's really mostly like Chicago and Milwaukee, but you know, anyone in the area is welcome if they want to drive over. We'll see if we can get one of those going on in the interval. Um, yeah. It's like, yeah, Ignite just kind of looms in my head. It's just, it's so awesome. Yeah. And I'm already looking forward to it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, that's a super great event. Absolutely. Very cool. Um, last question sort of , what sparks you, like where do you, where, where, where do you go for inspiration and kind of downtime when you need it from all of this stuff that you have swirling in your head with all the things you do?

Becky Benishek:  I'm going to say those are two separate things. For downtime generally I'm found with a book. You know, curled up in a rocking chair or just playing with the guinea pigs. Or doing a puzzle, you know, things where you, where you can let your brain just kind of do its thing. And click over stuff in the background while you're doing things on the outside. For inspiration, it just comes from anywhere. It's like I'll see a story or a picture or be in a conversation and suddenly it just sparks off and it's awesome. And I've learned through the years that if you don't write down that idea, when you get it, you will lose it. So, it's like, excuse me, I have to write this down. Don't anybody say anything till I get this down. And I go, okay now you can talk. I apologize to anyone who's especially my husband.

Heather Newman:  That's all those scraps of paper you were talking about in the beginning that are all over the place. So yeah,

Becky Benishek:  Yes, they are. Always carry a pen and an eating utensil and you will be fine for life.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no kidding. That's awesome. Right on. Well, hun it's been lovely talking to you as usual and going a little deeper with you on all this stuff, super interesting and what a great gift you've given to the world. I think it's so great on so many levels, you know, but I, the kids’ books are really special, so thank you for that.

Becky Benishek:  Thank you. Thank you. That means a ton to me. Thank you.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. All right, well Becky darling, thank you for being on the podcast.

Becky Benishek:  Thank you for having me. I love it.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Wonderful. Well everyone that has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast. You can find us on all of typical areas where you pick us up, but we are definitely on iTunes, we are on Spotify, we're on the mavensdoitbetter.com website and here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere.

 

Episode 36: Tech Maven Stephanie Donahue

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again with another episode of Mavens Do It Better where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And I am thrilled to have a wonderful person on today, Stephanie Donahue, who is a fellow Microsoft MVP. She is a speaker on the circuit. She's a business owner. She's amazing. So, um, Stephanie, say hello to everybody.

Stephanie Donahue:  Hello everyone and thank you for having me on. I'm excited. This is fun. I've been following you and the, the podcast. You've had some really amazing people on, so I'm, I'm quite honored to be here.

Heather Newman:  In good company, so that's awesome. Yeah. So, Stephanie and I recently, like the last time we were together was at the MVP Summit and uh, got, so we were a little bit ships that sail in the night.

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah, a little bit busy on both of our parts, I guess.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so Stephanie, tell everybody, let's start, where are you from originally?

Stephanie Donahue:  Well I am kind of based in Ohio. So right now I'm in Cincinnati. I've always kind of, I've lived in different parts of Ohio for the majority of, of my life, so very much a Midwesterner.

Heather Newman:  Excellent fellow Midwesterner over here as well from Indiana and Illinois. So that's awesome. Great place to grow up and a great place to live, so that's awesome. So how long have you been an MVP?

Stephanie Donahue:  Um, I think I'm in the neighborhood of about three years, so I'm still fairly new. I know there's a lot of MVPs that have been around for quite some time. I think it's been about three years for me.

Heather Newman:  Okay. That's awesome. And what's your specialty?

Stephanie Donahue:  I'm in Office Servers and Services and my background is, it's really rooted in SharePoint.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. When did you get started working in SharePoint?

Stephanie Donahue:  Well, I kind of tripped into it just like probably everybody else in SharePoint. I don't think anybody graduates from college and goes; I want to do SharePoint. I don't know. Maybe that happens now that they actually get exposure to it. I don't know. So my background, I kind of started up through the help desk and server support side of the house. And so I was doing a lot of the answering service tickets and more of a customer service thing and helping people with laptops as I kind of started in the industry. And I got into SharePoint when I was working for a consulting firm, I was actually doing their internal network support and help desk and they had a consultant that was out and unavailable. I think he was already booked on a project and I was supporting our internal SharePoint environment, you know, just real basic stuff. And they were like, hey, we're going to send you out to do the SharePoint install since you know SharePoint. And I was like, okay. And I was only supposed to be out there for, you know, just like a day to get the environment set up. And I was going to hand off to the consulting resource that they had originally planned to do the project and they were like, no, we like her, we want to keep her. So I actually, I got to stay for a couple of weeks and do the project. And that was, I kind of just accidentally tripped into the consulting thing that way. And from there on out, you know, they kind of utilized me here and there if they needed an extra SharePoint consulting resource then I've, I've kind of been here ever since.

Heather Newman:  Wow. That's so cool. So many of us, I think, and SharePoint sort of, I guess when we all started, it was a new technology, you know what I mean? So it wasn't something that you were like, Ooh, I want to do that. You know, so many people sort of found it by way of something else and a lot of people found it through help desk, you know, and being part of an IT team for sure. You know. Um, and you know, SharePoint being so easy to use.

Stephanie Donahue:  It takes a different skill set, right. I think that's how I ended up there was that, you know, I was still out to kind of prove myself and be like, I'm as good as the guys and I can go do Exchange and I can do domain migrations and I can do all this stuff. And, and I had a boss who kind of pulled me aside and he was like, look, you're good at SharePoint. Like, why, you know, why are you shying away from this? You need to embrace this and go do this thing. And I, you know, I thought about it and I was like, you know, maybe he's right, maybe I should go do this. And then that's really, you know, his guidance was why I decided to change my focus to SharePoint. And it was a great thing because before SharePoint was kind of in the mix with everything else that I was doing and, and it really became a focus at that point. And taking that advice has certainly served me well.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And as it, you know, it's, we all have mentors, right? And we all have people in our lives that kind of give us a nudge to the right way. And, um, I heard some news from you about, you just won an award, speaking of Mentorship. Why don't you tell everybody about that? Because that's super awesome.

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah, I'm really excited about this! So I have been participating in the Microsoft mentorship program. It's part of the diversity and inclusion branch at Microsoft and, and the idea is that we place mentees and mentors together. So if you're looking for help, you can apply as a mentee. And if you're looking to help others you can apply as a mentor and they match people based on what your skill set is versus what someone might be looking for assistance on. So I've done it a couple of times now. I just, it sounds like we're at the end of our second cycle and at the end they give this opportunity to the mentees to give feedback on their mentor on how things went. And, my mentee this time, Mike, he's awesome. He had submitted some nice feedback and as a result, I guess they now have a most valuable mentor award, which I was very, I'm very excited to be the very first recipient of that. And so it's, it's great. I'm excited. It's such a good program. And, and Mike, I've also worked with Joanne. She tweeted me as well when all that came out. And, um, it's, it's so exciting to be able to give back and kind of share some of the knowledge that I've gained over time because IT is a rough business and there's a lot of politics and things to navigate. And so I think that program is, is amazing and it's a lot of fun to be able to work with others that are kind of coming up through getting to know the community and getting to know others.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Well, congratulations and well deserved. I know you and your personality and the way you are with people. So that is not a huge surprise, but it is a really great honor. So congratulations. You know, that's,

Stephanie Donahue:  Thank you!

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Yeah, I think, you know, you and I talk about and are involved in, speaking of diversity and inclusion, we do a lot of different talks and, and things there, you know, with Ignite last year and some of the other things coming up. Are you finding, you know, like we're technologists, right? And I, you know, for me, I'm on the marketing side and then I also, you know, help champion those things. Do you find that you're being asked or that you're compelled maybe a little bit more to sort of play in the diversity and inclusion realm these days? Are you finding that you're being asked to do that or you just do it? You know, just curious.

Stephanie Donahue:  I think it's a little bit of both. I guess I've felt for a while that people have reached out to me to help mentor others. And you know, a lot of times that, from a diversity standpoint, given my background and who I am, that's women in tech, right? So, I have been pulled in a number of times to be like, Hey, can you talk to my daughter? Or Hey, I've got someone on my staff, I'd love for you to, to mentor, to talk to. And so, from that perspective, from a women in tech, I do feel like I've been pulled in somewhat. And it's usually more on a one to one basis, you know, I'm not running any big programs or anything like that. But it's, it's flattering to me and I do think it's awesome that what I'm starting to see is, you know, the men that have been in tech for a long time, they're becoming, you know, fathers, they have daughters that are interested in tech and, and as a result, I'm seeing a lot of support for women in the office and the business world because I think they're starting to connect that, right? They want that same kind of support for their daughters. And so I see them really embracing women in tech and I think that's starting to open their eyes too, to the diversity and inclusion at a bigger level that it's not just women in tech, it's everyone, it's humans in IT, I think is the term I've heard from others. And so what I see happening is really things are really starting to open up for everyone. Um, and, and people are embracing it as a whole because really we need more skills in IT. We're desperate for, for folks who can, who can kind of handle the constant shifting and the new things that are being thrown out and it doesn't care, you know, we don't care who you are as long as you can get in there and dig in and learn and do stuff. Like it's great. So, yeah, I guess that's a long winded answer but, but yeah, I do. I definitely feel that I'm pulled into some of those mentoring opportunities for sure.

Heather Newman:  No, that's great. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I think there's, it is humans in IT or humans in tech for sure. You know, I think that that shift, I think, you know, supporting women and you know, we're continuing to fight against, you know, imbalance in gender and wages and all of those kinds of things. But I do think that there's steps in the right direction. And I think that opening up the conversation to make, making sure that we are inclusive and that we're looking at all the different ways that we are different is super important and, yeah, it's been, it's been cool to work with the different teams and to work with you and to work with, you know, the Women in SharePoint gals and Karuana about conversations on how we can, you know, make sure that we also include the, you know, the white males.

Stephanie Donahue:  Absolutely. We want to make sure it's everybody. On that note too, there are smaller things too that we don't think about and something that hit me like a ton of bricks the other day someone had posted on Facebook about their challenges with being colorblind. And so, there are actually a large number of people that have some level of colorblindness. Right. So you, you might not be black and white, it might be that you have trouble distinguishing between shades of red or shades of blue or you know, you have the Red Brown, you know, color combinations that are challenging. And someone had posted to Facebook about how it was difficult to read a color coded email. And like something so simple that I've done my entire career that people don't even think about is challenging for others. And so just opening up some of those conversations. My own children are colorblind, my dad is colorblind, in the very basic version of that, but it hit me like a ton of bricks that it's in my own family and I never considered that those color coded emails where a challenge. So just, you know, just kind of spreading the word and, and helping people understand what it means to be inclusive and that sometimes it's, it's not just, you know, as a person, but it's your everyday interaction and something as simple as an email that can change someone's engagement with, with you. So really interesting.

Heather Newman:  That is interesting. I mean all the times that you see, you know, a lot of the times it's like a, a bold highlight in red, which, you know, if you have that.

Stephanie Donahue:  Red, specifically, is a challenge, right? Red is the most common challenge with color blindness. So, yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Wow. Yeah. No, I think it is. And it's, it's things that we don't often see. You know what I mean? That that is something you don't walk up to somebody and be like, Hey, I see that you're colorblind, you know what I mean? It's all of those things and the neuro diversity and understanding that everybody that, you know, there's, there's mental health issues in our world as well, that people don't always respond in the way that if you put air quotes around the word normal, you know? So I think all of that is really exciting. And you, um, you did a presentation last year in the diversity and inclusion track a couple of them. What, what were you presenting on? What was, what spoke to you, cause I know that you had some presentations out there in the world. What were your topics?

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah. So at Microsoft Ignite last year, I spoke on myths of business ownership and kind of my perspective on being a woman in tech and some of the challenges and things that I've run into and kind of the idea behind it was we are constantly faced with all of these like get rich quick schemes and like people that think it's, they, they kind of pitch the idea that it's easy to make a lot of money and the, the route to do that is to be a business owner. And you know, the four hour work week and all you have to do is lean in and everything else is, it just follows. So I just wanted to talk about my journey because all of these people that are, you know, writing these books, I couldn't relate to them. I don't, I don't have an Ivy League degree. I mean, I went to Ohio State, I have a degree in computer science, which I thought was pretty, you know, pretty good. It's okay. But I didn't graduate from Harvard. I don't have a law degree, you know, I don't have an MBA from Yale. So those things that it's great that they all felt, you know, that they had been successful in what they did. But I, I don't live in Silicon Valley. I live in the Midwest and you know, I didn't have all these things that these people had and I was trying to raise a family. I had two small boys as I started my business. And it's hard. It's hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. And so I just wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, that you've got to put the work in, you've got to put the time in. But then also, you know, it is possible, even if you aren't, you don't have that Ivy League degree and you're not living on a coast and you know, like me, you're in the Midwest somewhere. You can make it too, you just put your head down and work, but you've also, you know, you've got to lean on your, the people around you for help and to open yourself up to that help and, and stuff. So that was kind of the, the, the direction I went with all of that myths with business ownership.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's like, where are you dropped into the world, right? Like, it's looking at like how we, each one of us, like we're plunk, you know, and you're like, well, you know, like I grew up in Michigan, you know, for example, and so, you know, it's like what you do with that and what you're given and what your opportunities are, you know? Who your family is and what kind of education can you get and all that kind of stuff. I mean, all of those things are so valid, right? It's, it's kind of the whole deal. So I think that's such a cool topic. Did you have another one? Am I remembering correctly?

Stephanie Donahue:  No, I don't think so. Not for the diversity track. I did, at SharePoint conference, I also participated in the, I think it was a mothers in tech panel. We had some really great conversations there as well. I actually kind of took note of everyone at the SharePoint conference that had participated. We did have kind of a smaller group very intimate group and reconnected with everybody then at Microsoft Ignite. So, for those looking to reach out and to talk to others, you know, we all kind of have similar, similar challenges, you know, women in tech, moms in tech, the diversity thing. So having those groups at those large, those groups at the big events like that is really inspiring, you know, to get to talk to people and kind of get their perspective on things.

Heather Newman:  Totally. I mean, one of the best things we can do in our life is build strong friendships and relationships. Right. So that's super cool that you did that. I didn't know that. That's awesome. Very cool. And so, talking about being a business owner. So, I know that, you know, you and Mark Rackley, will you talk about your business and who you are and what you do and all of that so everybody understands that as well? And how long you've been in business, that'd be great too.

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah. So, so I started this venture about six years ago or so. And so it's called PAIT Group. It's Powerful Alone and Invincible Together is the acronym there. And that,

Heather Newman:  I didn't know that. Say it again. Say it again.

Stephanie Donahue:  Power. Yes. So PAIT, it's P-A-I-T, PAIT Group, Powerful Alone and Invincible Together and that's the name that we, and it was kind of one of those things, you know, you come up with a name overnight and you're kind of just throwing ideas out and, and that's kind of where we landed. And, um, so we're very team focused and we're a collaboration services groups. So I thought it made a lot of sense for us. But we do Office 365 and SharePoint consulting and we're very much in the mid-market, although we're starting into some larger enterprise size businesses now. Um, but what's different about us is that we, we don't do exchange migrations. We don't do VOIP implementations. No telephony. We're very focused on the collaboration stack within Office 365 and Microsoft tools, so Teams and SharePoint, Planner, Stream Business Apps meaning Power Apps and Flow. So, we stick to the business side of things and try to translate the techie stuff and make it valuable to the business. So that's kind of what we do. And I, I left, I was at a, a different consulting firm before that and I was frustrated. And then the reason I left was that they were like, well, why can't you just finish a project and be done? Right? It was like email, when you migrate email and you complete it and email works, you know, you're finished kind of thing. In SharePoint if you're doing it correctly, that kind of continues to evolve and change and there's always something else you could do. And, you know, we set out to change the way we were engaging with customers to help them through that process. And that's really what I became passionate about was it's not just tech, it's about creating a digital workplace. It's about changing the way people work. And so that's really, that's where our sweet spot is. It's like how do you start that change in that evolution in an organization and that's, that's where we sit.

Heather Newman:  That's cool. So, with kind of all of that that you do, is there something that's bubbling up right now that you're seeing that's sort of across the board for everyone like that all of your clients are maybe struggling with or, or wanting to get to? Is there anything that sort of comes top of mind around that?

Stephanie Donahue:  I think right now the, the tool set is overwhelming for a lot of people. You have so many different things going on in Office 365 that they don't even know where to begin. So, the conversation we're having over and over, it's like, where do we start? You know, and, and what, why do we use Teams versus SharePoint or why do we use Teams versus Yammer and just trying to sort out for them what belongs where. And, and help them with kind of putting a roadmap together and figuring out what's next. So, you know, typically that might start with let's do the Intranet first. That's a SharePoint thing, a Modern SharePoint thing. A lot of modern conversations going on. And a lot of migration conversations going on and how do I get from a legacy SharePoint into a modern SharePoint, that sort of thing. So, outside of just the tech, the conversation is how do we get two kind of diverse groups of people. You've got the folks that have been around forever and they have all the knowledge in your organization and they've been using email for many, many years and they don't want to use other things they don't want. Yeah. They don't understand SharePoint. They don't understand why we want to do things on mobile. They just want to sit at their desk and print things and print emails and print documents. And then you've got this other generation coming out of college and they've had laptops and tablets and phones for like, since they were little and they don't understand why we don't need mobile. Like why would you, why do you think we don't need mobile? I need everything. My own son sat the other day and updated his Weebly website from his phone. On our couch. You know, what are you doing over there? You need to be doing homework. And he's like, I am doing homework. I'm working on my website. Like on your phone? Like this is how their minds operate. The bigger conversation isn't the tech. It's like, how do we bring these two really different groups of people together? Really it's more like a phased group right? We've got those of us in the middle of that have kind of seen the evolution and, and kind of need a little bit of both worlds. But how do we bring all these people together to work more efficiently, to communicate better? That's really the message. How do you change people's way of working when they've been so well established and, and yet at the same time embrace the people who are going to be the future of the business. It's a really big challenge for a lot of people and being able to influence change with both, is a challenge, but also it's a pretty cool thing when you really get that moving.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Yeah. It's that, um, diffusion of innovation curve. It's like the early adopter, you know, the, the ones who jump on first and then you've got that bell curve, you know, and then the laggards, you know, really, you, you need all of those people in whatever teams that you're putting together for change management or putting together for technology. And you're right, it's not about tech. I mean it is about the tech and learning the technology, but it's really about human beings and how they are. Right? Yeah. I've walked into places too and they're like, oh, we really like your products, but we don't want to learn anything new. Like I'm about to get my pension. And I come in everyday and I'm happy to go home and take my kids to soccer practice. And that's about it, you know? And that is a huge problem. It's about just like how do we get people to be literate or PC or technology literate or human literate on the same level at work, you know? Yeah. You're right. That's a big, that's a big thing. And that is

Stephanie Donahue:  And that whole, that whole career impact thing is interesting too. You do have people that are leaving the organization soon. They're like, don't move my cheese. I'm almost done. Right? My own grandfather was one of those, he was at the end of the evolution of going from paper. He was an engineer. He always, he did all of his drawings on paper and they were like, if you need, if you want to stick around, you've got to learn how to use a computer to, you know, AutoCAD was the beginning of all that. And he said, no thanks. I'm going to retire. You know, I don't, at my age I don't want to learn that stuff. So, you, you do have that set of people as we transition into SharePoint, into Office 365 you've got those that don't want to touch it.

Stephanie Donahue:  But what we're also seeing is that this can also be a career, the thing that people will remember you for. So we've, we've got some people coming in to say, Hey, this is I, this is my legacy at this organization. I've got two or three years left. I want to really change things. This is, yeah, this is what I want them to remember me for, is that I brought all of this technology and change and that digital workplace. And so they look at it and embrace it as something that they can leave for others. And I think that's a pretty cool thing too, to be able to walk out the door and know that, that you've transitioned from maybe a legacy intranet and the old way of doing things all the way down to forms on, on the manufacturing plant floor. Right? It's, it's a pretty neat transition to be a part of.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Well, and it's about finding who that person is, right in an organization too. And sometimes they're, they're sitting there, the diamond in the rough waiting to, you know, pop up and be amazing like that. Yeah. That's super cool. Interesting. So, you are a speaker, you run around the world, you have clients you put on conferences, you do all that kind of stuff. So for you, how do you chill out and, you know, find some time and all of that stuff as far as balance goes in your life?

Stephanie Donahue:  So, it depends on the time of year. I have different levels of stress relief. In the summer you'll find me at Lake Erie, my mom lives on the water. It's the house she grew up in. So it's a fantastic place for me to go up and just relax. We go up every weekend, all summer long. And that's kind of my chill place. I just, I could really let go up there. But of course I live in, in Ohio, right. So that's maybe three months of the year and the rest of the year I have to figure it out. So at the moment my, my kind of a stress reliever is to run. So, I'm training for the Flying Pig Marathon, which is in I think about two weeks here. And it's a big, big race in Cincinnati, Ohio. It's a tough course. It's pretty hilly. So that's what I do. I go run and I say I run until I can't feel my legs and I can't think anymore.

Heather Newman:  You went and did a, what was that Orange Theory or something when we were together, for the first time, was that right?

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah. So when we were out in Redmond for the MVP Summit Andrew Connell and Jason Himmelstein and Rob Foster, they talked me into trying Orange Theory. And if you're not familiar, it's this crazy like you can you row, you run on a treadmill and there's floor, like weights. And, and a TRX. And so, they kind of cycle you through all of these things across the course of an hour. And I have to tell you, I've been working out for a full year. I did like all this, like waves is through Beach Body the online videos. I'm training for a marathon, so I feel like I'm in pretty good shape and I walked out at Orange Theory and I was sore for three days. So if that tells you anything. It's hard core.

Heather Newman:  It's a good workout. Oh my goodness. And um, as far as where do you go and where do you find inspiration and it can be about anything, it can be tech, work, whatever, you know, is there anything, is there a go to for you that you're like, ah, I read this person and I love it? Or somebody, you know, a blog or, I don't know. I'm always interested in sort of what, what sparks you and what gets you to moving.

Stephanie Donahue:  So, I, gosh, I'm a little bit all over the place when I need inspiration. It kind of depends on the day. I will tell you that I feed off of other people when I need to feel uplifted or to get inspired, working with others. And that's part of why I'm part of the mentorship program as much as it is about mentoring others. I get a lot from it personally. Um, it makes me happy to help other people. And so, um, that, you know, the, the things that other people are going through and that they're working through, they, they inspire me as well. And so I love that. That's, that's for me, that kind of fills my bucket. Um, but I also look to, there's podcasts that I listen to. Rachel Hollis is a big one. If you've not heard of her, she has a rise podcast. It's really kind of motivating and inspiring. She's amazing. And, um, gosh, I also, I do a lot of reading, so you'll find me all over Twitter. I consume a ton of content. So, um, you know, I follow a lot of hashtags, random stuff, business ownership books that I read. I'm very much a consumer of content.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Yeah, no, I think, yeah, I'm all over the place too. It's just depends. But there's so many people in our industry who put out so much great content and then just Brenee Brown and those types of folks too make me really happy as well. Um, so you know, you talked about a little bit about owning a business for a while. Is there any advice you have for somebody coming up? We talked about that a little bit, but is there anything sort of like you're like, if I could, if I knew this one thing before I started my business and I know that's hard, but, or maybe two something that is like that nugget or four, depending, you know?

Stephanie Donahue:  Yes. Gosh, there's so many lessons you learn, you know, in some cases you look back and you're like, man, would I do that all over again? I'm not sure. Right. Cause it's, it's been tough. It's been challenging. And at the same time it's like, I can't imagine myself doing anything else. I love it. I love the challenge of all of it. So my advice is, is probably to get control of your fears. Do the fear setting exercises where you know, the thing that's probably held me back the most was being fearful of things, being fearful of being judged, being fearful of putting out my opinion and my content. And in the process of letting that go and you know, you talk about people that in that are your mentors or that help you through those things. Part of the reason, um, you know that that I have worked so well with Mark Rackley is that when you find a business partner that will push you through some of those boundaries and help you take some of those risks, then that pushes you to be your best. And so we're a nice balance of, of being a little risk adverse and being more comfortable with it I think. And that's why we work well together. And he's pushed me through some of those boundaries. And you know, the, the speaking thing, I'm extremely introverted at times and I was terrified of speaking. It did not come naturally to me. And he knew this and he's like, I know you can do this. And he would submit me to conferences because I wouldn't submit myself. So, um, when you've got someone who believes in you to that level and who can push you through that boundary because it's someone you trust, then then that's the sort of thing I was referring to earlier with find the people that you can trust, that you can lean on, that will tell you, you know, you need someone who will, who will get in your face and tell you, you shouldn't do this or you should. And kind of help you through that process. Lean on those people, open yourself up to trust them. Because when you have that kind of relationship in place you can get further because you can push each other. And so I think that's super important as a business owner to find someone that can help balance you on that.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, for sure. That's awesome. That's so cool. And I, you know, knowing Mark as I do too, it's like, I, I love, I've always loved watching you two together, you know, um, as business owners and colleagues. You can see that you trust each other and that you work so well together. You know, it's always something that kind of comes through in your relationship and it's super cool to have found that because not everybody does, you know?

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah. I think it was the Hyperfish quick video that I did, they were like, what's it like to work with Mark Rackley? And I said, you know, off hand, it was like, it's like having a brother, you know, where you can fight like crazy, right? But like at the end of the day, you know that person has your back. Um, and that, that's kind of how we work, right? You need someone who's willing to be brutally honest with you when you're being a pain in the butt. And you also need that person, but you know, despite that, you know, that argument or that disagreement that you can come back to the middle because you know, they've got, they've got your back. So definitely, you know, a very strong core to PAIT Group is that ability to be honest with each other and to be able to get through that stuff.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. So where will people see you next in the flesh as it were?

Stephanie Donahue:  In the flesh? Yeah. So my next event, after I get some work travel out of the way, I will be an SPFest in Washington DC here coming up in a couple of weeks. So that's at the end of April slash beginning of May. That will be my next event. And then I always take the summer off. As I mentioned, I go to the lake a lot. I try to stay a little closer to home base and spend time with the family. So, uh, but I'm, I always enjoy those, the SharePoint fest events, those are a lot of fun. I'll also be at Shift Happens, which is the new Avepoint conference after that. So that's in June.

Heather Newman:  Okay, cool. Well, and I think that work life balance, taking that time off is smart as well girl, you know, it's like you got to do, you got to do it.

Stephanie Donahue:  You got to take a little time for yourself and for your family. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. Well, awesome. Well I just, I think you're the berries and I loved that, Stephanie and I got a chance to know each other a little bit more and kind of every time and it was fun, we actually roomed together and so that was kind of fun to like just be like, how was your day?

Stephanie Donahue:  It was great.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it was awesome.

Stephanie Donahue:  You can be my roomie anytime. I think that's kind of a good thing that, so for this that don't know at MVP Summit, they kind of force you to room with somebody just to kind of keep costs reasonable and that sort of thing. And it's been fantastic getting to know you better. Last year I got to know Liz Sundet better. And so, you know, always being able to be paired with folks within the community I think is, is a great thing. It's always awesome to get to know more of you ladies better.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, definitely. And then, you know, it's like, and then we're like, well, who's going to this event? Let's room together there too. You know? So that's, it's been, it's been cool to kind of have that push and then be like, well wait a minute, we should just keep doing this. So yeah, no, that's totally awesome. So well everybody, we will put Stephanie's ways to follow her up on the show notes. And do you have, do you have your own, you have your own blog? Yes, I was just up there actually. Right? Yeah,

Stephanie Donahue:  I do. I don't keep it quite as up to date as the PAIT Group blog. Everything that you can find me as StephKDonahue, so stephkdonahue my Twitter. Steph K Donahue dot com is my blog site as well. And if you put that in LinkedIn, I show up there too. I tried to stay consistent.

Heather Newman:  You are, you get an a plus for personal brand. How about that? To have it same, same, same, same, same. No, seriously.

Stephanie Donahue:  I don't know if that I deserve an A+ for keeping my blog up to date. There's some good stuff out there, but I definitely owe that blog a little attention right now.

Heather Newman:  Well, okay, well you know when you have a spare moment. So anyway, um, I just want to say thank you for being on the show and it's great talking to you and hearing about your past and your future and all the goodness that's happening. So I appreciate you being on Stephanie. Thank you.

Stephanie Donahue:  Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been fun.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Well, folks, um, this has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast and you can find us on iTunes, on Spotify, on the Mavensdoitbetter.com website. And here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks.

 

Episode 35: Tech Mavens Tracy van der Schyff and Jethro Seghers

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. We are here for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. We're in the car and, uh, I am here with two lovely ones that I've just spent 10 days with in a van, all across South Africa. So Jethro and Tracy say hello. 

Jethro Seghers:  Hello. How are you guys? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Hello everyone. 

Heather Newman:  Hello. So, we're on the way to the airport here in Johannesburg and we're dropping Jethro off, sadly. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Very 

Jethro Seghers:  Yes. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  We're all crying if you can't hear that. 

Heather Newman:  Yup. And, uh, we have had a, so we all got here around what the 4th of April? And uh, got into town and Tracy heads up much of the SharePoint Saturday action here in South Africa. So how many do you typically do here in South Africa? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  The events? Sorry. Yeah, we, we've got three main events. We've got SharePoint Saturday Durban, Cape Town and Johannesburg. So, it's me and Alistair and some other people as well that helps us organize. But, uh, and then we do these crazy little mini in between ones. Of course, like this year we did East London and we did Port Elizabeth. So that's five in total at the moment, of what I'd call SharePoint Saturdays. But some of them doesn't happen on Saturdays, 

Heather Newman:  Right. The little ones were in the week in between. Absolutely. So, Jethro, have you ever been on a tour like this? Tell everybody what the tour is called and what we were doing. 

Jethro Seghers:  So, we actually did a tour, so we started in Johannesburg where we did the SharePoint Saturday and the Sunday after we actually all got in a van, the seven of us really nicely and tightly together. And we drove all the way to Durban and been to some amazing locations. And along the way we did mini SharePoint Saturdays where we could interact with local businesses, education like colleges and universities, and really give them a full overview of the Microsoft 365 stack and get them up to speed with what Microsoft is doing that might help them benefit their career, their educational trajectory, whatever they need it for. And at the meantime both Tracy, Al and Warren showed us a really amazing country. So that's pretty much what we've been doing the last full week. 

Heather Newman:  Have you ever been on a road trip like this before? 

Jethro Seghers:  No. No, not really. Um, and even if I was just the beauty of the landscape and just the amazingness of the people on the bus would probably made it beyond compare anyway. So, uh, it was amazing. 

Heather Newman:  And it's your first trip to South Africa, yeah? Or second? 

Jethro Seghers:  Technically second, but the first one I was here for a conference. It was literally in and out. But this one is a where I could really experience how beautiful this country, how amazing the people are. So Yep. First Time, let's say. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Yeah, absolutely. So Tracy, so Tracy is amazing, first of all, and she's a terrific presenter. Jethro and Tracy are both Microsoft MVPs and Jethro is, can we talk about that? About to take a job at Microsoft on the Microsoft Teams education team. Very exciting. So, Tracy, how long have you been an MVP? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Um, three years, I think. Three years. Yeah. This will be the fourth year. So we had that funny cycle in between where they change the years. But uh, but yeah, three cycles. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And you own a business? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  I do. I've got a company called The Guid Stuff because that's what it is. And, um, I have, I think in my business motto is to facilitate the evolution of human capabilities. And it really is, I'm by far Microsoft's biggest fan, I know that everyone in this car knows this, and everyone in the bus knows it, but I am Microsoft's biggest fan because I've always believed that the product enables and empowers people. So that's definitely what I focus on is helping companies like adopt the technologies and help them enable and empower the employees and, and that's what I get up for every day. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think one of the other things that I think has been really powerful about our trip was, you know, one bringing Microsoft technology thoughts and all of that stuff too, you know, people in South Africa where you go every year, you see a lot of the same partners and customers and then you have new people come. But also I think, you know, when you go on a bus trip like this when you're in a van with people and driving, you know the first day was what, an eight hour trip I believe. So, you know, we got to, you know, we're all in the industry together and we were sharing ideas and talking about who does what and getting to know each other a little bit more deeper about how we do things. And I think that's really, you know, something about our community that's really exciting is that we all do help each other and we all talk about, you know, hey, I like what you did here and I share that and how do we, how do we continue to sort of cross populate and cross help each other when we're in something like this? I think you felt that too Jethro. Yeah? 

Jethro Seghers:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes what is really difficult for us when we're in our own little bubble is, we are our self-worst critics, right? When we look at some things like, oh, are people like really happy with the stuff that I do? Is the content good enough? And, but when we see other people, like when I see Tracy's blog or you Heather's blog is that I love what you guys do, but sometimes we have to vocalize or really put that in words towards each other. So being able to hear from each other like, hey, I really respect what you do. This is what I like. And all that stuff suddenly is like, wow, we're really, uh, spirits that really think the same and then really want to support each other. And it's really without any, any agenda or whatsoever is we're really, really providing a lot of feedback to each other, but also ideas, right? Sometimes it's like, hey I'm struggling with this in my company. How would I approach that? Like you've been in the same situation. Like how do you do that? And I think that that advice and just being able to just be a mirror for somebody, is so rewarding. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, we talk about some times imposter theory and you know, and what you were talking about, it's like, you know, I think, it doesn't matter who you are, where are you are in your career, your game or whatever, whether you're famous, whether you're not, whatever. We all work really hard to put things out into the universe, right? And I think there's always stage fright and there's always a little bit of like, well, are people going to like this and all of that kind of stuff. And I think it's really great to talk about that because we're all human, you know, we all have those things that, you know, we have that voice in our head that tells us, ughh, you know, you suck. You're not smart enough, you're this, you're that and da da da da da. And it's the quieting of that voice and the quieting of that voice by getting a reflection from somebody else that takes us to that next level, to where that next time we feel more confident about it. Right. Yeah. And Tracy, I know that you do a lot of workshops and I'm really excited, she and I have been talking a lot about this and I'm really excited to see you know, what you're going to come out with and what you're bringing to the table. I mean, you're such a great speaker. You're so powerful and you really get down to the, I love your direct, beautiful way of talking to people. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Also called aggressively and disruptive. But thank you Heather for the nice words. Direct. 

Heather Newman:  Yes, all that and a bag of chips. But I think, you know, one of your passions is, you know, I love your presentation that goes into PC literacy. Will you talk about that a little bit? Why that's important? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Absolutely. So, over the last couple of years, I realized that normal technical training, I wasn't getting the results that I wanted. And, um, I started doing some research, I'm going to call it luck, very likely the psychology behind because I'm definitely not a qualified, I don't know, whatever. But I started reading up a lot about how, how we adapt, what we do, what happens when we train. When does training stick, when does it not stick. And um, and something that I realized that even myself, and I'm pretty sure the industry, we're adding technical and very technical skills on top of foundations that doesn't exist. So, or that are just a little bit shaky. And if I, for example, I just think advanced SharePoint, you know, back in the day building sites and site collections, you know, web parts of building solutions, those type of things. I could take someone, you know, through a course and they could build amazing solutions, but it just wouldn't stick. And I realized that the logic behind it wasn't there. That self-esteem wasn't there. So, so I started looking at what is the foundation before we get to that. And our environment, we would know that as Windows or Office that we use every day, but just general, um, IT systems and e-safety and being comfortable with, uh, with online systems, etc. So I started speaking to companies about whether they thought that that could add value, adding it to the training. And of course, every single company told me no, it wasn't necessary because all their users were a hundred percent PC literate. You know, I was just like, that's interesting. You know, that's great. Obviously South Africa doesn't have a problem, but I think everyone else does. But, um, I then did some more research and I came across very, uh, very good articles and research that's been done. That pretty much tells us that about 70% of the people that was tested in that survey was not what they consider a PC literate. And of course digital literacy is much bigger. So our problem is much bigger. The challenge we have is so much bigger, but, but we're pushing technologies at people where they just not comfortable with a PC in front of them yet. And the challenge is that we only know what we know. So those people don't even realize that they have a problem. They think that that's just the way it's supposed to be. I'm not an IT user, you know, I'm not supposed to be that good at stuff and I'm like, nope, you are. You're supposed to be efficient. You're supposed to be effective. You're supposed to love what you do and get it done as quickly as possible and use all the tools that you have. So I've started baking that into my training in the last couple of years and started doing workshops that includes more than just the technical aspects or the product knowledge. And I can pretty much say that at this moment if I had to do five day engagements with a client, I can tell you that about three days of those has got very little to do with the technology itself that I'm busy training. It's all about uh, and I'm not going to say soft skills, I call it power skills, but it's the power skills we need like creativity and collaboration, and curation of content and e-safety. It's focusing on those things. And then, and then adding the more technical knowledge when, when they're in a safe environment where they can learn. So it's kind of like prepping the environment, if that makes sense. And we've never really done that. We've never prepared the environments for training. We've just added stuff on top of it because we assume that everyone knows everything and that's definitely something I'm very passionate about. 

Heather Newman:  I love it. I love your presentations on that. They're just, y'all, it's sort of, I don't want to say simple, but it is sometimes it's just those little things that will shave time off your day. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Exactly. 

Heather Newman:  That make you feel more confident that get you to do something that you always do just that little bit faster. That takes time. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  But that's definitely a very important thing and you'll remember from my slides, that's something I use for exec and c-levels as well when I have engagements with companies because we know that money is important, right? It's not that I can just walk through a door and say that I'm here to make your employees happy because that's not always a bullet point on a strategy 

Heather Newman:  People don't always want to pay for that. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  It's not, that's not part of my strategy to make happy people. I'm here to make money. Right? And I started doing some crazy exercises around, uh, if I could just save a company five minutes a day, I mean, this is going to be in South African currency now, but I mean, I've written a blog, you can definitely go and work it out. But I worked out for a company of about 5,000 users, if I could just save them five minutes a day, um, by being a little bit more effective or efficient or love what they're doing or use the tools that they already have without even spending money on new software or cloud technologies. It's comes to maybe about $26 million ZAR, which is a lot of money in a South African company. $26 million rand is a lot of money and when you start pulling those figures, 

Heather Newman:  And you said million? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Million ZAR. So that's a lot of money. 33 minutes a day, which was based on one of the research articles that I used as well. So it says that with basic PC literacy, so not even Office, basic PC literacy could add about 33 minutes of productive time to an employee's day. And I worked on 33 minutes and I think it worked out to $169 million rand a year in a company. And that makes people sit up and go, what? Because it's the small things that messes us over. We tend to focus on the big things, you know, I just want to do that onboarding solution or I want to completely change the leave application. I'm like, but did you realize that if you used Flow and you helped every employee in the company to just write one Flow, that saves attachments to OneDrive or to a SharePoint folder, stuff that they get every day, you'd save them five to 33 minutes a day and you'd have that type of savings. And I don't think we're always focused on the small things. We're so conditioned to just focus on those big ones. And it's the small ones that makes the biggest difference across companies. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, agreed. Jethro, I know that you've worked in education before and now you're about to go back. And what does it mean for Teams to Microsoft Teams that that new product that's out that everybody is very excited about, what does it mean to go into education for that? Like what does that, what does that look like? 

Jethro Seghers:  Well, I think there's multiple layers to it, right? Well, first of all, I strongly believe that if we can enable students with the skillset that they need in the business, they're going to be more efficient, faster, be of more value to their employer. And kind of what Tracy was saying as well is the fact of making sure that they're immediately active and that they can do whatever they need to do and saving that time again and not necessarily get them into a stage of PC literacy or Office literacy. So it's more than just Teams, it's getting students involved in basic skillsets with computers, with Office, with Windows, with Teams. And Teams is important now, and of course an important part now because it helps them to collaborate better and to be more efficient in their syllabus and getting to a point where they have better grades and where they learn to collaborate and when they learn to be efficient and learn to be in a team, which is super important. Of course for Microsoft is also a big part because when you have it in education, automatically they're going to start requesting that in the business as well. So it's not all completely for like nonprofit opportunities. But it is a large part where it's just trying to make a better society as well. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah. No, that's cool. And so you live in Seattle, but you are from? 

Jethro Seghers:  Belgium! 

Heather Newman:  Yes. And so you made your way to Seattle by way of Belgium. Tell everybody about that a little bit. 

Jethro Seghers:  Well, about five, so I had my own company and it was one of the ways that I was doing stuff for education. And uh, about five years ago I got an opportunity to work for a company called BitSight as a program manager and I was like, you know what, I'd like to do something different, not necessarily go away from cloud or education, but it was one of those opportunities that I felt that I couldn't really pass up on. And we went for my for my immigration visa. That got all got approved, I moved over here, sold everything I had in Belgium, restarted everything. So that was very interesting going through the whole immigration process. Makes you kind of more in tune with what certain people have to go through to make a better living for themselves in the United States. Recently I got my green card and I was talking to people at Microsoft and they were like, hey, why don't you just apply for this, uh, this education job? And I was like, okay, yeah, I might just do that. And so I applied for it and within less than a week went through seven, eight job interviews and suddenly it was like, congratulations, you're hired. So yeah, absolutely. 

Heather Newman:  That's great. And you have a sail boat there in Seattle? 

Jethro Seghers:  I actually have a motor boat. 

Heather Newman:  Oh, is it a motorboat? 

Jethro Seghers:  Yes. I don't know how to sail. But it's, so Seattle is really, really fun. It's one of those areas where there’s a lot of green, you have Lake Washington where you can just spend your time on the water but you drive for 40 minutes and you're in the mountains and you can ski and snowboard during the winter or hike during the summer. So it has a little bit of everything. It's really a cool area to be. Very open minded as well. It's one of those areas were as an immigrant and sometimes as a different thinker, um, with different opinions. It's really open minded, allows you to be who you want to be. And it's definitely a part of the US that I really appreciate. 

Heather Newman:  I lived there for 10 years and went to college there myself. So yeah, I completely agree. Seattle is a really beautiful city with really open, wonderful people. And Tracy, how did you get started in IT? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  I didn't, don't tell anyone. I think and I can definitely see it if I just look at our little concentrated community we had on the bus and then the greater community as well as being surrounded by like-minded people. But I always see the same characteristics or attributes in the people that's in the community is that we are curious. We soft learners, we want to help people, we want to figure things out, we want to build cool things. And I think that whatever jobs I ended up with in my life, which was not IT jobs, I always ended up in an IT portion of it because I love technology. I've always wanted to help people. So, so pretty much I don't know, let me quickly add that up, seven, I don't know, about 12 or 13 years ago, I, um, I just got promoted into being the intranet manager at AFGRI. And I kind of said, so what, what's the Intranet? And they said, well, I don't know, it's built on SharePoint. And I went like, what's SharePoint, right? And that's just how things happened. A lot of us don't get promoted into these jobs. A lot of us end up there because we show up and we put our hands up and we say, let's do this, we will figure it out. And, and that's pretty much how I got involved. I've always been a trainer at heart. I've had driving school, I had an (?) shop in school. I've always loved helping people and empowering people. So this was just perfect to me. The more I got involved in the IT side and, and, and, and having the ability to build cool things and help people. It was just a, it was the perfect combination. 

Heather Newman:  And we got to, so everyone, I'll put some of this stuff in the show notes and Tracy's blog and some stuff about teens in education of course from Jethro and one of the things, so the, it's 365 TOUR dot C O dot Z (Zed) A and a, that's the site for the two events that we did. And then we also have that Hashtag out on social media. We had a videographer, Adam King from Insite Video who, I can't even imagine. It was like 3000 pictures and so much video. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  And we adore him, and we want to adopt him. We really want to adopt him. 

Heather Newman:  We're going to sop him up with a biscuit for sure. He's so cute and sweet and he came in from the UK, um, after doing another show in Amsterdam and he's off to something else after here. And, uh, Darrell Webster was in from New Zealand and he also, Darrell is brilliant and works for Adopt and Embrace and he also does a lot of on Regarding 365 and also just captured so much and made all these little videos, ended up teaching me how to use a couple of the different tools and we spent a lot of time doing that. It's like, here's how to use this on Instagram and here's how to do that and here's how to, Tracy be showing how she makes her cool little pictures with the words on them and all of that. So that was really neat. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  And then Jethro, of course, went and just floored us all by doing it much better and become the king of social media and mixable media. 

Heather Newman:  Yes, absolutely. And you know, Warren Marks was on the trip with us and Alistair Pugin of course. And Alistair's um, and sorry, Warren's company Ave Point was a sponsor and SkySync of the actual tour in the van and a big thank you to them for making this happen. And that was awesome. And all of the sponsors for SharePoint Saturday Johannesburg and SharePoint Saturday Cape Town. Thank you so much. It, it really, you know, building community is about all the things it's about showing up and it's about speakers and it's about the great money you give and being there to talk to people about your technologies and everything. And so that was really wonderful. So a big thank you I know from all of us that were on this tour. Um, and you know, I think the other thing it was what was really fun is that with both, with Alistair and Tracy and Warren it was like, you know, when you're in somebody else's country, one you're getting to see it through your own eyes, but you get to see it through their eyes and you also, you know, like we would drive by something and Tracy was like, well my dad built that bridge and Alistair was like, that's where I got my tonsils out and you know, so that was really fun too. So how is that, you know, this is your what third van trip? And how is that like seeing people's faces when they get to see your country? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Definitely kind of re-sparks the excitement that you have because we get so stuck in what we do every day and this crazy machine that we form part of that that we kind of don't allow ourselves those little special moments anymore to travel your own beautiful country. So, so firstly for me, it's always great to just kind of be reminded of how beautiful this country is. And secondly just, just to see that appreciation or just kind of like ignites that again, it's the same as a conference and it's the same with community does, but this was just a community about our country, right? Just kind of being reminded and having that affirmation that this is pretty cool cause of course humans we get used to things and it becomes a given, right? And then you just, when you experience it with other people for their first time, again, you just realize how fortunate we are and how incredible this country is. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it's really, I know, it's like I was telling all these guys about, you know, my thoughts of Africa and I'm pretty well traveled. I know I've seen pictures and all of that, but I had no idea that South Africa looks very similar to Sonoma County wine country. You know, that was a surprise to me and it was so, uh, I was, you know, you sort of, I dunno, you have this thing where it's like there's lions and the Savannah and you know, and it's like not all of Africa is like that. And the drive from Hermanus to Cape Town, I believe probably is one of the top three beautiful drives I've ever been on in my entire life for sure. Like that was absolutely gorgeous. Oh, speaking of driving. Thank you Alistair, thank you Warren for all the amazing driving you did you both really rocked it. It was a couple of times when we went up on two wheels Alistair Pugin, but we all survived. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  I just kind of put it out there, thank you guys. But they wouldn't let me drive the bus with them, so I'm just putting that out there. 

Heather Newman:  Jethro, how about, you know, a moment that sticks out or a few or anything about the bus tour? I know that's a tough one, right? 

Jethro Seghers:  Yeah, there's so many, I think I'm going to stick with the mini SharePoint Saturday we had at the university, um, 

Heather Newman:  In East London? University of Fort Hare. 

Jethro Seghers:  Yeah. Here's the thing, right, is that when you connect with them and you show them something they can use, that they will be able to use to advance their career, to advance their life, to something they can use to build up on top of, they get so rewarding and sometimes we forget about that, right? It's like the immediate reward feeling that you get, they feel that, hey, you're here, you're explaining this to us. We're so grateful for you to do that. But at the same time, what they don't realize is they even teach us so much bigger lesson to like, look what they're doing. Look how they want to keep control of their, of their lives and want to advance. And we sometimes takes too much things for granted and getting it back to, um, a level set moment, let's call it, that was, that was intense for me. 

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, being someone who also has managed conferences for years and years and running SharePoint Saturday LA, I know how much work and time and energy goes into just one, let alone three, let alone a tour. So Tracy, lady, seriously, ridiculously amazing. I know how much work and time and energy you put into this for all of us. So thank you, because sometimes that logistics piece of it doesn't get the thanks it deserves, having done that for a long time too. So, you really, thank you for letting us be in your country and be with you and be at your homes and Alistair, being at your homes as well. And yeah, I, I feel like, um, you know, it's fun to get a chance to be with your friends and your colleagues in their homes and you both are amazing people in the world that I am so happy to be colleagues with and friends with. And having got a chance to go a level either leveled up or a level deeper with you, whatever you want to call it in the gaming world. But yeah, and Tracy, um, there is another SharePoint Saturday coming up will you tell everybody about that too? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  There is, in Durban. Oh my word. Can I not remember which date it is? 

Heather Newman:  May 10th. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  There we go. Thank you Heather for remembering things, but it is round about then. So Durban is still coming up. Um, we had to kind of bring a gap in between it because we had other conferences happening and I think we just needed the break as well. And we normally do all three in a row, so Durban is coming up as well. I'd definitely, if anyone's listening to this please, if you're from that area, we'd love to see your pretty face there and for you to become part of the community and things. And um, it's just always amazing for us. I mean I think we're so fortunate in the community cause it kind of feels like you know everyone and you know where everything is. But man, there's people stuck out there in little basements without windows who thinks they're struggling on their own and they don't know how to make this happen. And they feel guilty or they won't make it, or I dunno, imposter syndrome and I can promise you if you form part of the community it just changes all of that, you know, just that support network that we have. So please join the conferences. I mean not just SharePoint Saturdays, it doesn't matter, but join the conferences, join the community. I mean like the tech community and the online forums and things and just become part of it because I can promise you every bit of it's worth it. 

Heather Newman:  Yup. Absolutely. So everyone, um, as usual we will put all the ways you can follow these two lovely ones in the show notes. And I know that Tracy has got workshops that she's going to be coming out with and talking to people about that you can book her for in your business. I also know that she, and if you haven't read her blogs that she did Office 365 and M365, a blog a day challenge that she did. And I'm saying it right here, right now there's a book coming out and coming soon from Tracy. Yes. In the next year, probably sooner. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Because when you say it, it happens. It's going to be sooner. 

Heather Newman:  It's going to be sooner than that. So she will have a book out and Jethro is going to continue to blog and put out great things on the tech forum. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  And be an awesome Microsoft person. 

Heather Newman:  And be a great advocate for all of us. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  And we all stalk him because he's a celebrity. 

Heather Newman:  So, any last words Jethro? 

Jethro Seghers:  Everybody should come to South Africa and visit it and be blown your mind. 

Heather Newman:  Awesome. How about you miss? 

Tracy van der Schyff:  I think from me, words are so important to me, but there is this beautiful African word called Ubuntu and Ubuntu says, I am who I am because of who we all are. Don't ever forget your role in the community and that, that we all become amazing together. And that's what's really important for me. And that's what this week summed up has done for me. 

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. And you know, it's the communities that you belong in locally. It's the communities that you belong in the larger world and we all are one big global community that affects each other all the time. Thank you both so much. 

Jethro Seghers:  Thank you. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Thank you for being in our country and doing this with us. 

Heather Newman:  I love it. It has been, uh, inspirational, beautiful, beautiful trip that I will not forget and I cannot wait to come back and I haven't even left yet. 

Tracy van der Schyff:  Well, my house is always open to you guys. 

Heather Newman:  Wonderful. Ah, Yay. All right, well folks, show notes will go up, transcripts will go up and you can find the Mavens Do It Better podcast at all of those places where you normally do up on iTunes, on Spotify, up on Stitcher, and up on the mavensdoitbetter.com website. And here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. 

Episode 34: Tech Maven Robert Bogue

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. We are here for another episode of Mavens Do It Better. I am here with the awesome, wonderful Robert Bogue.

Robert Bogue:  I'll be my own fan club today.

Heather Newman:  Dear friend and colleague and we are catching up, where are we? San Diego!

Robert Bogue:  Yes, we are.

Heather Newman:  Yes. And we just saw each other in Seattle. That's kind of a back to back and then we haven't seen each other in a really long time.

Robert Bogue:  Right.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. So, yeah, we're at the AIIM Conference, so it's kind of fun. So, I wanted to have Rob on, as you all know, these interviews are about extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world and I definitely think that about Rob in many, many realms. Definitely in technology and he's got all kinds of really cool things that he does outside of that as well that we're going to talk about today. So, but let's start off with your moniker in the technology, in the SharePoint community that you've had a long time.

Robert Bogue:  You mean the SharePoint shepherd?

Heather Newman:  Yes.

Robert Bogue:  Or the guy that carries the big stick.

Heather Newman:  Yes.

Robert Bogue:  It's actually a crook.

Heather Newman:  Yes, he carries a crook around y'all. So where did that come from and how did that start?

Robert Bogue:  Honestly, I needed an alliteration. I needed something that would be funny and I'm like S's and Sherpa was taken and so then it became shepherd. And then, so I do travel with the staff. And I often get asked how I do that. I have a trick staff. It breaks down into three pieces.

Heather Newman:  Oh, my goodness.

Robert Bogue:  And so, I'm always worried that TSA is going to stop me, because I have like a quarter staff in my bag.

Heather Newman:  Oh, sure. Cause it's still pretty big, right?

Robert Bogue:  Well, you know, you think you assemble them, so they don't know the difference between a quarter staff and a shepherd's crook. So, but that's how that started. We initially published the SharePoint Shepherd's Guide for End Users in 2008.

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Robert Bogue:  On the 2007 version then we did 2010, 2013, 2016. And now, we're kind of in this continuous integration for Office 365.

Heather Newman:  Right. And it started out as a book?

Robert Bogue:  So, it was always a book that wasn't supposed to be a book. So I 'd been doing publishing for a really long time. And so I knew how to do that, I knew how to make books. But it was always intended to be tasks that you put into SharePoint that were searchable. And so we do the book, I call the book, that's our promo materials. And so we've been doing that for a long time and it's super cool. I love the ability to customize so our customers can change the content. And even as we're doing updates, we leave their content intact. They can add new content and it's super searchable because we actually deploy into their environments.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I was just going to say, tell everybody how you deploy.

Robert Bogue:  It's a push and you don't have to have super permissions. You start the program and it pushes all the content in and so that, that then makes it a part of your search index. So you do that, and you do a little keyword action word for help and somebody can type in "help column" and it'll give them all the results for columns. We also do for, for the customers who have multiple versions of SharePoint, like we've all kind of, you know, it's kind of like we've collected dishes over the years, right? And they don't exactly match. And so there's actually a version selector. So if you are saying, oh, how do I add a column in Office 365 and you're like, how was this done back in the dark ages of 2007, you literally click on a selector and it shows you the way it was done in 2007. So, it's super fun to walk down memory lane.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no kidding. That's awesome. And with that there are, tell everybody about, because I know because I, we, so Rob and I talk on Skype sometimes on video and so like he can see like my office and I can see his studio and all of that. And I know that you have a really fancy studio at your place with a green screen and all that kind of jazz. So, like you are also making videos all the time that are part of this is as well.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah, absolutely. So, the Shepherd's Guide comes with videos. So every task comes with videos. But then we also do other course productions. So, for instance, AIIM, the conference we're at now, that organization, I built their Implementing Information Management on SharePoint and Office 365 course that they sell. And the funny thing about a video studio is, the video is the easy part. The audio is really super hard and so I have more invested in the audio in my studio than I have in the video. Getting all the sound suppression panels and covering every panel. And the audio gear and all that stuff to make it sound beautiful. Super expensive.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. No, I, yes, it's not cheap. That is for sure.

Robert Bogue:  So, that's what, for me, that's been the thing that the video we produce is beautiful. It's pictures beautiful, but it is rock solid on the audio side. And so I just love that about having a studio.

Heather Newman:  That's awesome. Yeah. I think that, you know, even with podcasts and stuff like these little zoom, like we're, I'm using an H4N Pro Zoom, you know, and this has a pretty good microphone and stuff, but when you start doing it when we're not in person. Oh my goodness. You know, it's like if you're using bad equipment, it sounds terrible. And someone was like, I think it's in this ear and not that ear and when it plays in my car. And you're just like, holy cats. Like it was just a lot to think about making content with this sort of thing. So, yeah. So you are also an awesome book reviewer. So if you don't know this, I post a lot of Rob's book reviews. Like I'll post them up on my Creative Maven site cause I think they're awesome. And what's great about them is that they're like my own personal sort of Cliff Notes.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. I don't have to read the whole book. I can just read Rob's thing, it takes me a couple minutes and I'm good.

Heather Newman:  It's great. Or giving me a flavor if I want to read something or not. But so, talk about how you got into doing that. I mean, obviously you're a reader, so

Robert Bogue:  So, I started five or six years ago, and it was this part of my life that, it was a period of time in my life where I needed to grow. I was going, I went through a divorce and got remarried and I started thinking like, you know, the thing I'm going to do for me, the thing I'm going to do to grow and become a better me is I'm going to read a book a week. And that was really easy when you didn't have other people you need to worry about. But I kept it up. And though most people think my reading list is boring because it's, it's marketing, it's psychology, it's leadership, it's business, it's all this stuff. But none of it is like fiction or you know. Um, so every single week I will read a book and then I post the review Monday morning at eight o'clock eastern time. The only other interesting thing, because you said it's a good summary, but the thing I enjoy most about it is linking topics together. So for me it's, oh this and marketing, and this and psychology, and this and business, and this and leadership and, and connecting all those things. That for me is the part that is allowing me to keep doing it.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah. Everyone, we'll put a link to his stuff in the show notes, but it's really, it's cool. I like that, well I like your brain. So like, I like the way that you do those connections and, and link other books, you know, that you've read into sort of how you think about stuff. So you've been in the Microsoft ecosystem for how long?

Robert Bogue:  Well, first the earth cooled, then the dinosaurs came. So, I've been in it for a really, really long time, a couple of decades. MVP for 15 years now. Just super fun. Lots of great people. And we've been a partner for a long time too, but that's, yeah, that's just kind of what you have to do.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And tell everybody where you live and where are you from and all that.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. So live in Indianapolis been there for a long time. We have seven kids, two dogs, and it's just a great place to be. Not so great in the winters, but you know, I'm kind of digging this San Diego weather.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Not so bad. I'm from, you know, I'm from Michigan and I lived in Zionsville right there. So I'm an Indiana gal myself for some years growing up. Yeah, it's a good place to be.

Robert Bogue:  It's good people.

Heather Newman:  For sure. Yeah, I know, I like that too. And with, you know, seven kids, I know your wife who's lovely, who's visited me in California before and you two have really cool things that you collaborate on together as well. Will you talk about some of your collaborations?

Robert Bogue:  So, there's a couple of things that we did. So back in 2015, one of the things that we did was we created a set of child safety cards. So, Terri was supporting the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit and noticing that parents and kids weren't really talking to each other. And so we created cards to get them to talk to each other. And then we added safety sayings from the CDC or the American Academy of Pediatrics. We had a dice replacement. And so that's in our Kin 2 Kid brand.

Heather Newman:  Say it again?

Robert Bogue:  Kin 2 Kid. K I N , the number two, K I D. So we do that. We have a book coming out in May. The Society for Human Resource Management is going to publish, Extinguish Burnout: A Practical Guide to Prevention and Recovery. And then we're going to be speaking at the national conference, which is super fun. And it's, it's about how do you not get burnout in what you do. And nursing has this, healthcare has this, IT has this. Everybody has this. Right. And you can get burnt out in life as you know.

Heather Newman:  What do you mean "as I know", what are you talking about?

Robert Bogue:  Uh, I don't know? I think we've all been there.

Heather Newman:  Yes, we have. And we've talked about it extensively. So anyway,

Robert Bogue:  Yeah, so we've got that going on. We had a patent issued last month, so in February we had a patent issued for an IV dressing innovation. The short of it is, dressings need to be clean, dry, and intact to prevent bacteria from getting in your bloodstream and killing you. And it's hard to assess dryness cause you always have gloves on. So, super, super simple, and we're super looking forward to that getting out in the market. Hundred thousand people, roughly, die every year from healthcare associated infections. So we're trying to like save lives. I mean it makes the SharePoint thing seem really boring, but I love the community there too.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. That's so, yeah. You two collaborate a lot together, which is really exciting. And then you are doing things, I don't know, like how does, do they just come up because of something you're passionate about or is it?

Robert Bogue:  Like how did it come about?

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah. How'd it happen?

Robert Bogue:  So, the cards started on a conversation back from a SharePoint Saturday in Atlanta. And we were frustrated because parents and kids weren't talking. And we're like, well how do we get them to do that? And then it was cards and then, and it just snowballed, right. The dressing, we were on our way to our son in Connecticut and we're driving through the middle of Pennsylvania at 1:30 in the morning. By the way, there is nothing in the middle of Pennsylvania, much less at 1:30 in the morning, it was dark. And, Terri was whining a little bit about this kid who got sick from a bug that is a gut bug. It's a normal thing you have in your, in your gut. But he was in serious condition. And so it's 1:30 morning, I'm making random connections. I said, well, dog vomit fluoresces and maybe human vomit does too. Now why I knew that dog vomit fluoresces, I have no idea. So then we, so from my mobile phone, mobile hotspot, we ordered from Amazon five lights, and the nurses test the fluorescent lights with kids, and human vomit does not.

Heather Newman:  Okay, good to know.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah, I mean if you ever need it, but Scorpion, anything from a Scorpion including your urine does fluoresce as well. So there's your Trivial Pursuit fact for the day. And then I'm like, well, maybe we could feed them green fluorescent protein. So when they do vomit it will fluoresce and we decided that was probably not going to go over really well. But then we settled on, you know what? Any liquid is a problem. It just happens that someone vomiting on their dressing is super bad cause you get bugs already in it. But any liquid is bad. And so that's where we came up with, we'll just make a moisture indicating dressing. Yeah. So they're all, they're all some problem we bumped into and then we just go, well, what can we do to fix it?

Heather Newman:  Well, yeah, I mean there's so many people that talk about all kinds of ideas and things all the time, but then they never take action.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. Yeah. It's hard taking action. So we're working right now on, so if any of the listeners work at a hospital and know Environmental Services, they only clean half the stuff they're supposed to. And that's research, I'm not trying to pick on anybody. It's just research. We've got a way to improve their cleaning rate. And if I can get them from 50% to 75% of the objects that they're supposed to be cleaning. And notice my target is not 90 or 100, 75. I can reduce hospital associated infections by about, it's about, well, it's about 20%, which works out to be about one to two infections per employee per year.

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Robert Bogue:  So, we're super excited about the ability to work on that and to, that one actually brings a little bit more of my technology background into it, but it's how do we keep people from getting hurt and getting sick and dying?

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. Well, and isn't that kind of, you know, some of the most important things?

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. Well, so in that one, I'll tell you the story behind that one was Terri was in the hospital for something and she's fine now, but she's in the hospital and saw the Environmental Services cleaning and oh my gosh, I can't believe it. And I'm like, I can fix that. And she's like, you can't fix that. That's humans, you can't. I'm like, nope, I've got 20 years of training. I know how to fix that problem.

Heather Newman:  Is that coming soon.?Dot. Dot. Dot.

Robert Bogue:  I need, I

Heather Newman:  You're working on it.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah, I'm working on it. Really the problem is the savings, which is in infection control and the cost is all in environmental services and they're so far apart in the organization. So I'm going to try and find a company that, a healthcare organization that really gets it, as like not only do we want to save millions upon millions of dollars every year, but we also don't want people getting sick. And when I find that client, we'll roll through production and

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Are you going to take the cards in places outside the US? Is that already being thought of?

Robert Bogue:  We haven't. The cards are a really interesting thing cause I carry them with me all the time and I give them to people randomly, which occasionally gets me some weird looks at airports and stuff. But mostly people are like, oh, thank you. Those are ones, they're philanthropy for us, right? We're trying to just get them in the market so that people don't accidentally hurt their kids. They just don't know. That's another case where we're actually waiting for the right partner to want to push this mission.

Heather Newman:  Right, right. So what does the optimal partner look like? Cause they might be listening.

Robert Bogue:  Honestly, it's reached to the effected market, which is people who don't have a lot of family around, so they're younger parents. The cards really talk through grade school, elementary school. And a lot of interactions, a lot of touch points with those sorts of folks. We really felt like there are lots of places where kids are at that it'd be super cool to have these, either as a giveaway or as a low cost item that they could purchase.

Heather Newman:  Give an example of like one of the cards, like something that it teaches.

Robert Bogue:  Oh, the simple stuff would be stuff like, don't let your kids play with the dog near food. Right? Like you're like, oh, well that makes sense. Dogs, food, they get protective, the kids will get hurt. There's things like, don't let your kids be outside while you're mowing. Kids take two weeks to adjust to heat. Babies respond to temperature changes quicker, so you have to be more careful with them than others. So it's, it's a variety of things. And really what we did is we took the CDC's vital statistics and they keep this and it's what people are getting injured by. And we sorted them and we took the top of the list and those made it into cards. And then the drawn art work is pretty cute because you get to see kind of what the kids thought.

Heather Newman:  Right. Right. That's so cool. I love that. So anyone listening food for thought on that one.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. Let us know. We really do want to get them out there.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Going back to technology land, I mean, you've been in this business area for a really long time. What do you think is coming? You know, like, what's on the horizon, you know, or like the things that people say is it like AI and you know, and virtual reality.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. Okay. Alright, so let's do AI first. So, we're sitting at the AIIM Conference and now everybody is talking about robotic process automation. Um sorry, we've been doing this for a long time. We called it business process automation. Right? But we didn't have the AI component. And you're like, oh my gosh, we've got AI now. So what does AI? Well, AI is anything we haven't figured out how to do before. Right? It's really, people are like, oh AI, AI, AI. You know what, 20 years ago OCR was AI. 20 years ago optical character recognition was super amazing and it was impossible and it was wow. Right,? And now if you talk to somebody about AI, they won't put OCR in the list. Right? So Ai is just the stuff that we want you to want to long for, hope that you get. And it's good stuff and it's magical, and boy, I love mathematicians and statisticians who can make this stuff work. But for me it's all the same. It's all, it's all what we've been doing.

Heather Newman:  I love my data man. My little, do you remember what those were? So it was like a, it wasn't a calculator it was in the shape of a robot. It was literally called Data Man. And it taught me my multiplication tables.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. Like, like a little Alfie sort of thing?

Heather Newman:  Yes. It was a little dealio. And to me that was like the best thing I'd ever had.

Robert Bogue:  So, so future. Right? Like to answer your question. I think what I'm most excited about is that every iteration we learn a little bit more about how to make technology work for actual humans. And we're not getting it right yet. I don't want to say that we're getting it right. And the pendulum keeps swinging, right? Like so we have all this stuff on-prem and it's deployed and blah, blah, blah. And big corporations can't change it for 10 years. Right? And now we're on the other end of the spectrum where, you know, oops, I blinked and Office 365 changed and oh, I blinked again and man, now I've got Teams instead of Groups. I blink again and I, and I think we're too far on that end. But I like the idea that we're going to swing to the middle. And we're going to figure out how to help people be successful with all this technology that we keep dreaming up and implementing.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Yeah. I think that's with anything in a way, you know, it's like the pendulum, like sometimes it swings so hard one way it gets stuck and we're, I mean, I think we're all wanting things to be just balanced a bit more, you know? I thought, since we are here at the AIIM Conference, it's always interesting to see where things are moving in particular with, you know, Paper. Somebody, oh, I was dealing with an insurance issue the other day and she was like, yeah, well you can fax it. And I was like, who has a fax machine? You have a fax machine?

Robert Bogue:  I do actually have a fax machine.

Heather Newman:  Why do you have a fax machine?

Robert Bogue:  Because I have a big multifunction copier in my office and it has fax built in.

Heather Newman:  Okay, fair enough.

Robert Bogue:  Right. But the 80s have called and they want it back.

Heather Newman:  I was like, you don't have a standalone fax machine though?

Robert Bogue:  No.

Heather Newman:  Okay. All right, let's be clear. But my point is, is that I think that because you work and do a lot of things in healthcare, like healthcare anything, financial services and utility and some of our sort of, I guess, the most sort of important industries are the ones that probably still have fax machines and so many paper records and all of that stuff. And I see it moving, but I don't see it moving as fast as it could. I wonder why. I mean, I have my opinions about why, but why do you think?

Robert Bogue:  You know, it takes just a ton of energy to manage all this churn. And absolutely should we maybe get rid of fax machines? Yeah. I would agree. We need to get rid of the fax machines, but to change a business process or rather to change all of the business processes. It takes a long time.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And people don't like change. I mean, I don't care, you know, coming to any show, any of these technology shows and talking to people, walking up to a customer, you know, you may have the best thing they've ever seen and they love it and they're like, yeah, that's great. And they're like, I don't know. Do I have to move from here to there? To do it? And you're like, and sometimes it's free. You know what I mean? Like you can't even give it away to have somebody make a change. You know? And I know you talk a lot about like adoption, user adoption and all of that stuff. Has your spiel changed or is it the same?

Robert Bogue:  It's changed. It's more informed. I spend more time, what I realize is the people I am talking to have never been trained in organizational change management. They've never been trained in psychology or communications or engagement or, or, or. And so what I realize is I'm talking to somebody who drives a car about how to repair a car. And it doesn't work. Right? And so, basically I'm teaching auto mechanics. Or I'm saying, if you will let us, we will repair your car for you.

Heather Newman:  Or we can teach you to change the oil and do like five things on this checklist that you can do yourself.

Robert Bogue:  Right. I mean, learning to cook, if you think about learning to cook, you could become an expert chef. Or I can teach you a handful of things and I can give you a box of recipes and you know what? You're going to do okay. Right? I'm not even talking about like boxed dinners kind of. okay. I'm like, you know if you learn how to scramble an egg and bake a chicken breast and a handful of things. It's all you need.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. You're going to do all right. Yeah. So, you're writing, you've written a book that's going to come out that's about burnout. How do you, not to dig too personal, but like how do you avoid that? How have you avoided that? And does that come into the book? Are there stories like about your personal life? Is it like how does,

Robert Bogue:  Yeah, there's definitely stories. They're really, they tend to be more about the kids or our friends but they're definitely the stories. I think, I don't mean to oversimplify this, cause then people won't buy the book, but, but

Heather Newman:  I don't think it matters in a way because it's like you can tell people to do x, y, and z that's going to be good for them and they still don't do it.

Robert Bogue:  Right. So here's the, we have two models in the book. One is the bathtub model and it is your personal agency is a bathtub and when the bathtub is empty, you have burnt out. All right? And that's super simple. Now what fills the bathtub are your results, your support and your self-care. So, if you keep those things flowing, then everything keeps working. Now, by the way, the drain has a valve on it so that you can manage that and those are the demands that are placed on you. And so, at a basic level, if you feel like you have the capacity to get things done, you're unlikely to be in burnout. The second model in the book is a little harder to get. You have to kind of, there's more that's needed, but I'll give you the basic framework. The basic framework is you have to feel effective. And I said personal agency, the ability to get things done. Effective is actually a past tense. You're looking backwards and you're evaluating what should I have gotten done with what I perceive I did get done. When those two things get too far out of whack, when you feel like, oh my gosh, I should have gotten way more done. You expect more of yourself, you get and you have a lower view of what results you got, you'll be in burnout. And then so you trip those over to where you feel like, you know what? I'm doing a really darn good job. I'm not perfect but I'm getting stuff done and then it will be difficult for you to fall into the trap of burnout.

Heather Newman:  Right. I like that. I think cause sometimes with, with burnout in some of these issues there's like, I don’t know, in being on different panels, you and I speak a lot on different panels and talk about that stuff. And I feel like sometimes that it's like there's like somebody who'd be like, well you know, you just have to be positive or you have to be like vocal or you have to do blah, blah blah. And I feel like sometimes we don't use good examples. It's like that seems like the bathtub system. You know what I mean? And it's a visual. And you can see it and you can be like it's lower or higher, and you turn the drain on or off. But I feel like sometimes you read books or you like listen to people talk and it's like these big sort of, I will call it like an empty slogan. You know what I mean? And I think that that's exciting. So, there's a system and then there's also examples and stories of people that you know, your family and friends about how either they've gone into it or gotten out of it. That's awesome. I can't wait to read it. Say the name of it again.

Robert Bogue:  Extinguish Burnout: A Practical Guide to Prevention and Recovery.

Heather Newman:  How many books have you written?

Robert Bogue:  Uhh, that will be 27.

Heather Newman:  Holy cats! I think I knew that. I knew it was in the 20s but I didn't know it was 27. When did you write your first book?

Robert Bogue:  In 91' I wrote a chapter in a book.

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Robert Bogue:  And so, you get, by the way, I say 27 it doesn't mean I wrote everything in all the books. You write one chapter, I author credit. Author credit on 27 when this book is published will be 27.

Heather Newman:  What is the one that, is there one that has like, I don't know, is it something about like the first or is there something about maybe this one or is there something about one that you were like, this is the most awesome thing? Is there one?

Robert Bogue:  It's this one. It's Extinguish Burnout and part of it is I got to work with Terri on it. And we get to work on it together. She and I had worked on a chapter in an information overload book by the American Nursing Association. And that was fun. But this is different. And the other books that I did prior to that stuff, it's mostly technology books. And again, I love technology and I don't want to minimize it, but this, this for us is Extinguish Burnout is going to change people's lives. Like you don't get stuck anymore. You don't develop depression. You don't like, the correlation numbers if you look at some of the research, some of the researchers are trying to say that burnout and depression are not different. I don't agree with that, but there's some really high correlations. So if I can figure out how to keep you out of burnout. And it does, by the way, the flow of information is having burnout leads to depression, right? It's a fast follower. Follows within three months. But if I can keep people out of burnout, maybe I can keep them out of depression and depression is predicted to be the largest healthcare, not mental health, healthcare issue we will have on the planet by 2020.

Heather Newman:  Well, and stress and depression and all of that stuff leads to us getting, it's disease. It's cancer. All of those things are what that is. All the things that you're like, you turn around one day and you're like, really? You know? But it's like, yeah, remember all the times you've been stressed and bananas and couldn't get things done and felt terrible about yourself and like, right? So yeah, I completely believe that as well. Wow. This is so exciting. I can't wait to read it. You also have, talk about, did we talk about your organizational and communication videos at length at all?

Robert Bogue:  No.

Heather Newman:  So, let's talk about that, cause he's got all kinds of great stuff y'all. We're bouncing around, but like I keep remembering all the cool stuff you're doing.

Robert Bogue:  I can't sleep. So, one of the common problems about technology, so we started talking about what's new in technology and all that stuff. One of the common things in technology is getting the users to adopt it. And what I find is all the folks haven't been trained, psychology, comms, all that stuff. So what I started to do was put together pieces that people can use in their communications. So if I go back to a cooking metaphor, I pre make something and then you can season it and it's yours. You made it. But all the core of it's done. And so we've got two series that are releasing publicly with, they've got bumpers on them, but they're releasing publicly. One is engagement videos. And so that sort of Where's Waldo.

Heather Newman:  And that's not engagement like getting down on one knee.

Robert Bogue:  No, we're not talking about exchanging rings. We're talking about how do you get your users excited about your technology. So that started with Where's Waldo and just teaches people how to search on their intranet. It ends with wormhole physics, which is not yet posted. Which is about how you use Teams to connect people up, Microsoft Teams, you connect people across time, space and, and the spoiler alert is, so I'm the SharePoint Shepherd, my characters are, they're like Leading Lamb, Sam Sheep, Elaine Ewe, right? Like it's kind of in that. So I made a call to the field and so I called Lola Lamb while she was in the field. But, so you'll have to, you have to see that episode and that'll post at some point. And then, so that was how do you, how do you tease that into the middle of a communication about the rollout you're doing? Or how do you get people excited once you've rolled out? And I kept doing this and what I realized was the corporate communicators, most of the time they're the admin person for the department who's generating the story about whatever. Right. They've never been taught communications, right. They don't have journalism backgrounds. They don't know about inverted pyramids. When people talk about inverted pyramid they think about the Bangles, right? Like talk like no, that's walk like an Egyptian. Sorry. But they don't know, they don't know to write emotionally. They don't know how to write a story. Oh my gosh. If you've not been in drama or journalism or whatever, you don't know how to write a story. If I said Joseph Campbell, if you've been through story stuff and writing stuff you know Joseph Campbell. It's hero story and, and you know that stuff. But if you've never done that, and the teaser for the folks who are listening, if you don't know that, it's the framework that George Lucas used for Star Wars, right? Like it's the thing. And so we have a series of those, those are 600 words, four minute videos. And those are posting every other week. So the engagement is one week and then we do communications. Folks can use those directly; the videos are up on YouTube. If they want to subscribe to a series of them, so a they get them pushed. I give them to them off my video platform with shorter bumpers. Then if they say no, this was really good I really have to have this, they can buy a license that has really no bumpers and they can either deploy internally which they can use to watch their activity and know who's watching them. Or, they're also allowed to use them off of my video hosting platform but they have no bumpers and no ads and no, like it's just the video.

Heather Newman:  Got It. The content. That's super cool. I like that methodology on, you know, in our gig economy of like using the content, how you want to use it and license it and all that stuff. That's super cool.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. And we'll see. I mean, it's a new experiment for me. I like experiments. Most of them fail.

Heather Newman:  Oh, come on.

Robert Bogue:  Well No, they do! A friend of mine says,

Heather Newman:  No, no, I mean a thousand light bulbs or whatever.

Robert Bogue:  A friend of mine is like, Rob, I love that you never fail. And I looked at her and I'm like, what are you talking about?

Heather Newman:  Failure always leads to really good things usually. A lot of lemonade out of big lemons.

Robert Bogue:  Yeah. Yeah. I look at failure. Failure is not an option. It's the pathway.

Heather Newman:  Yes, exactly. Fail hard, fail quick, fail fast, fail a lot, move on, for sure. That's good.

Robert Bogue:  Keep failing. Just don't let it be fatal.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Well yeah, that's good. Yeah. No Darwin awards for anybody.

Robert Bogue:  Right. Hey y'all watch this!

Heather Newman:  So, we've got a new book coming out. We've got videos. Oh my goodness. You've got a patented bandage,

Robert Bogue:  IV dressing

Heather Newman:  IV dressing. I wanted to say that right. What else? Anything else?

Robert Bogue:  Gee, I hope not.

Heather Newman:  I know. Like, no burnout for you, Mister.

Robert Bogue:  Results versus expectations. My expectations are low and I'm cranking stuff out. It may not be very good, but I'm cranking it out.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no, that's awesome. Where will we see you speaking next?

Robert Bogue:  I don't know. Well, so I don't know. See, so here's the thing, I know that I'm speaking at the SHRM conference nationally. I know I'm speaking at the Association for Professionals in Infection Control. I've got an HR conference I'm speaking at in Indianapolis. I know I've got more stuff, but the best way to see my speaking schedule is go to the website, go to Thor Projects dot com and on the lower right is the upcoming speaking schedule.

Heather Newman:  Yes, and his website is Thor, t h o r like Thor,

Robert Bogue:  The Viking God of war and thunder!

Heather Newman:  Thorprojects.com. So you can catch him there and we'll put more links up on show notes. What's your Twitter-atti handle? It's Robert Bogue, I believe.

Robert Bogue:  RobBogue, @robbogue.

Heather Newman:  Okay. And if, and if that's wrong, we'll fix it.

Robert Bogue:  Well I don't, I should know this stuff, but I don't use it actually.

Heather Newman:  I know, I tweet you all the time, but I'm like, I don't know either. But anyway, we'll put it in the show notes as well. So rob, man of many maven hats for sure. Um, and such a dear friend and thank you for catching up and being on here and telling everybody. You always have such cool things going on and I'm always just like, wow! You know, cause they're, you know, just from the heart, you know, and wanting to help.

Robert Bogue:  Look, you know, Jobs said, you know, figure out what kind of Ding you want to make in the universe. Yeah. And for Terri and I, I think I've figured it out. I think we're going to go ding this healthcare associated infections thing and I think we're going to grind it into the ground.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Thank you.

Robert Bogue:  Thank you.

Heather Newman:  I mean, that's amazing, right? And, love to Terri and thank her too, but yeah. So, so good. So thank you, rob.

Robert Bogue:  Thank you Heather.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Well everyone

Robert Bogue:  Be fantastic.

Heather Newman:  Okay. I'm going to work on that every day, I think hopefully, yes. Folks, catch us on iTunes and Stitcher and Spotify and all the places where you listened to your wonderful podcasts and here's to you and another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks.

Episode 33: Tech Maven Karuana Gatimu

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary mavens who bring a light to our world. Couldn't be more excited to be sitting here today in the Mixer Commons on the Microsoft campus in Redmond, Washington with none other than Karuana Gatimu. Hello!

Karuana Gatimu:  Hello. Hello. That's a great intro.

Heather Newman:  Yes. And, Karuana and I have been catching up and I figured I'd have her on. She is a maven of many sorts technology and diversity and inclusion and adoption and is also just an awesome friend. So, wanted to get with her today and talk about all those wonderful things. So, tell everybody what you do at Microsoft.

Karuana Gatimu:  Oh, sure. I will. And thank you for having me. I think that the, uh, being here, you brought the sunshine to Redmond, Washington. It is beautiful out here today, which is, I'm finally thawing from snowmageddon. So I work in Microsoft Teams engineering and I run our customer advocacy group and we're a little bit of a unique team for Microsoft because we bring together all the adoption best practices, documentation and guidance, worldwide training, but a lot of feedback and also quality work with our tap program, our prerelease program. So it's fun to have all that together. It's like I found my tribe. And it's a pleasure to get to lead that.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And we're here, are we allowed to say where we are?

Karuana Gatimu:  Oh yeah, you can say it.

Heather Newman:  We're at MVP Summit. So I'm a Microsoft MVP in the Office Apps and Services segment. And so I got to see Karuana speak and we'll probably see her speak a couple of times and what we do here is we get updates on things and a lot of it is under nondisclosure cause it's coming soon kind of thing. But there's lots of great things coming with Teams and we got a sneak peek for some and then a lot was released because of, was it Enterprise Connect?

Karuana Gatimu:  Enterprise Connect. Yes. That's a major conference. It happens to be the same week this year as MVP Summit. As well as things happening for any of your European listeners. We had our Amsterdam Ignite Tour this week as well. So lots of things happening around the globe and we're privileged to be such a big part of that front and center for Microsoft Strategy. Microsoft Teams is a big piece of the M365 strategy going forward. And you know, I've been lucky to get to work in these spaces. I worked in SharePoint when it was new. I worked on the Yammer acquisition, worked on the release of Power BI and now I'm here and you know, it's really exciting to be around a new product, especially one that's been as well received, as actually all of those have, but especially Teams right now is a, is a hot topic.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think in talking to customers and partners and in the space, we've been talking about how, you know, SharePoint has, you know, is beloved and been along for such a long time and that Microsoft Teams is really making M365 Microsoft 365 and Office 365 sticky. In a way that it's kind of pushed things to the next level I think, which is really exciting. Will you talk about sort of the adoption programs that you have around that? Cause I know you do a lot in that.

Karuana Gatimu:  Yeah, we definitely do. We do think that it makes Office 365 sticky. But what we even more hope is that it is really transforming that experience. You know, people have given us feedback and this is, I believe that Teams is a representation of the transformation of our own corporate culture. You know, with Satya here and the whole leadership team really focusing on diversity, inclusion, being open, actioning customer feedback. That's really how Teams was born. And so what it's trying to do is provide that center of gravity for that communication and collaboration. Well that's great, but it's also a big change for people and likely not the only change going on for them. So we really wanted to have an adoption

Heather Newman:  What people have lives outside of technology?

Karuana Gatimu:  They do amazing. Even I have a life, nobody knows that, of course, they think my life is Teams, but I actually do have a real life. And in my real life there's other things going on besides some new application that I'm supposed to learn. And so, you know, we have an entirely new adoption framework that we took that feedback from our customers and that, I do a lot of direct customer engagement, which for me is my bread and butter. I really like to have what I call truth from the trenches, right? What is actually happening out there in the field with our customers trying to drive adoption. And so we took all that feedback and we altered the Office 365 adoption framework and Microsoft Teams was the first group to put that into production. I was on the V team that changed the main framework and you know, we think it's going to help people, you know, find their tribe, right? Find Their tribe, tell the story and user our tools to drive adoption more easily.

Heather Newman:  Right. That's awesome. Yeah. And so when, just so folks, there's, you know, folks that are definitely in technology who listen, but like there's folks that aren't, so your title.

Karuana Gatimu:  Oh yes. So, titles inside Microsoft are like kind of super confusing when you, you know, and that's okay, but if you look on LinkedIn, a lot of us don't use our internal title on our LinkedIn profile. I happen to, but you know, that's why I say, I'm the Lead of the Customer Advocacy Group. Okay. But technically I'm a Principle PM Manager, so that's a principle program manager, manager. So I manage other PMs because I'm a lead, I have a team. But it's funny, right? But you know that principal title is basically you earn that inside of Microsoft when you get to a point where you're supposed to drive your own programs forward. Not that other people don't. But there's a greater expectation that's on you once you reach that principal level. It's considered a leadership level. So, you know, I was lucky I came into Microsoft that way because I've been a director and a GM and all sorts of other stuff elsewhere.

Heather Newman:  And you were at Sketchers as well?

Karuana Gatimu:  I was, I was, I was the Chief SharePoint Architect at Sketchers and I ran ecommerce there and digital marketing. And so, you know, that was a great job. I love Sketchers. They're a fantastic company, lot of fun. And that was at the time when, you know, back then I remember my VP of IT coming to my desk and handing me an iPad and saying, listen, make SharePoint work on this.

Heather Newman:  Okay.

Karuana Gatimu:  Right. On the first iPad. I'm like, I'll do it. I'll definitely do it. So, you know, I think that it's the same situation now. People out there, you see Teams, you want to use it. There's probably some IT person who's still trying to figure it out. And my job is to bring those two things together. What the business needs and when it pros can do and help move that ball. So, I did have a hand in designing this job. And for anybody out there who's listening from a career development perspective, I'd say, you know, you want a job, design it, own it, go after it. You know, I lobbied people for a long time to make this role. And I had different iterations of it along the last, I'd say like four or five years. So, you know, I'm really lucky now that I got, I got the Gig.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Yeah. You have to craft your own world. You have to craft your own path a lot of the time. So Karuana and I had the pleasure of, you know, we met officially at Ignite a couple of years ago and talked pretty much the rest of the evening into the morning I believe. And then we've been doing great just stuff together. And I have to say thank you for being such a great advocate and saying, hey Heather, do you want to do this? And I think we do that for each other and I just appreciate that. So thank you.

Karuana Gatimu:  You're welcome.

Heather Newman:  Yeah.

Karuana Gatimu:  I like to be an active myth buster. That powerful, intelligent women can't band together and work together effortlessly. I think there's still a lot of myths out there around that. I don't believe any of them. They've very rarely been my experience. Usually when I meet other really smart women, they're always excited to find out what you do and start to partner and do cool stuff. And we happen to have a lot in common. So, you know, that was, it was even easier. We just clicked like tribe members do. But you know, I also think it's important. I think it's an important example to set like, hey, we're all in this together. We have to band together to create the world we want to see.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And so we've had the chance to do a few things together. Like you came down to SharePoint Saturday Los Angeles, and we went to the European SharePoint Conference and did workshops together. So we led workshops on the show floor, for networking and leadership and empowerment and all of that. And we have, we're about to embark on another one.

Karuana Gatimu:  Yes, I'm so excited! SharePoint Conference North America! Ahhhhh!

Heather Newman:  Yes, Las Vegas, third week of May if you haven't registered or don't know.

Karuana Gatimu:  Right, exactly. And you know what I like about the SharePoint Conference is, you know, Ignite is such a huge event and I think it's a wonderful event obviously. And you can learn everything you might ever want to know about any Microsoft product at Ignite. What I like about SharePoint Conference is it's focused on that collaboration space and so you can deep dive with other product group members and you meet other customers and hear what they're doing. You know, the attendance is such that you can actually kind of get to know people. A lot of deep dive content on a variety of subject and Teams of course has a track there in the SharePoint Conference and we're about to do our diversity, inclusion and belonging track. And what's really amazing about that is SharePoint Conference is one of the first conferences to have a dedicated track for diversity, inclusion and belonging, on at the same time as other technical content. And that's because that's how important this is, right? If we don't have better diversity, if people may be diverse but they don't feel included, and you may be included but you don't feel like you belong. We won't actually design products that work for everyone. So I, you know, I'm super excited to be involved in that.

Heather Newman:  And you know, we did it last year and it was the first time and it got a lot of, you know, talk and feedback. And that's the other thing too that I really love about our community is that, you know, it's like some stuff worked and it worked really well and it was great that we did it and there's other things that didn't. And we were like, what didn't work? Tell us, let's figure this out. And you know, we have a committee that is working on this, you know, and we did last year as well. And you know, Cathy Dew from Women in SharePoint is heading a lot of things up. And Jennifer Mason and you know, and all the folks that work on the Microsoft team. So, you know, it's not, these things aren't just in a bubble, you know, and it's great to have a bunch of different voices and also people involved in it and, you know, putting out a call for speakers and all of that. And I think we're about to do a call for meetup leads and all of those things. So, you know, the diversity, inclusion and belonging area it's a moving target and it always has been. And what I'm, you know, Jen Stirrup, was part of, and they created a diversity and inclusion advisory board this year for the MVP Summit, which I was on. And it was really amazing to, and it's got, I think, I don't know, there's probably 50 people on it and it's everyone. It's not just women, it's everyone, and everybody was contributing, you know. Did you see part of the pre day?

Karuana Gatimu:  I did. I just see part of the pre-day. And the thing, you just hit on something that's really important. Diversity, inclusion and belonging is not just about, you know, different genders and different, you know, ethnicities. It's about everyone coming together and feeling a part of something bigger than themselves. And I think, you know, as a longtime community activist in a variety of topics, technology and otherwise, one of the things that I think is most important for people who are doing community leadership is to be open and to take feedback and criticism very well and to really make other people feel like they get to have a voice and a choice in the direction of those communities, in those events and what have you. Because sometimes these things can become like some sort of a clique. And I think that that's very dangerous for our causes right now. I think it's very, very important to be open to feedback, to be open to other people shaping things. And you know, you may encounter people who have opinions that you don't agree with. That's okay, because we need, that is the essence of diversity. It's not diversity in how you look, it's also diversity in how you think, that is important to really, you know, moving us forward. And especially right now in the US right now, we need that ability to hear other people we need. We're pretty good at talking in the United States. We're not so good at listening. And one of the things that I really try to contribute, even though I am a talker, is to really help people understand listening skills and what it means to be an active listener. I think from a community standpoint, that's what I love about the SPC D&I committee. Right? We took that feedback back. You know, we were open, we were, you know, we invited that feedback, and now we're actioning it. We're making changes and people are going to be able to see themselves reflected back in the community, which is all anybody really wants. They just want to see themselves in the bigger picture. To know that they matter. I think it's really important to do that. Certainly part of a legacy I'm trying to leave. I was recently nominated to the Experiences and Devices Women's Board, which is Rajesh Jha's organization, which is all of Office. We have a women's board and you know, a senior female technical leaders from all across that group, we're coming together technical and you know, PM all disciplines are represented. And to me that's a huge honor and I really take that stuff seriously because I want to participate and leave something behind. Selfishly, I don't want any other woman to have to go through what I went through to get here in my career. And that's why I created this Service Adoption Specialist Course so that people can take and validate their skills, people who are business and technical and communication skills. There was nothing for us and I just thought that that was not okay, you know. And so it's brand new. You know, it came out in January. We've had over 5,800 people take the course and we have the second highest conversion rate to a paid certifications of any edX course ever. And that validated for me that yeah, there's a segment here in this industry that really needs this career path modeling. And I'm thrilled about that. And so many of them are women, right? Because women come from very diverse career backgrounds. We end up in tech, you know, I'm theater trained, I know you are, right. We didn't, this was not our primary place. And so, you know, I think that all of this work where there's diversity, inclusion, the adoption more, you know, everything, I'm really trying to leave this, this breadcrumb trail, this neon breadcrumb trail that's very obvious, about how you can move forward even if you don't have a traditional technology education. Cause I don't, you know, I don't have, and for a long time I wouldn't even talk about that cause I was too insecure about it.

Heather Newman:  Oh yeah. I had the imposter syndrome about it. I would say, oh well, I was just a theater major and a dear person in my life pointed that out to me. And I was like, oh my goodness. I was like, I use it every day.

Karuana Gatimu:  That we're just is, to me it's like, it's like part of the evil empire. I use it.

Heather Newman:  Kinda. Just. It's doubt language.

Karuana Gatimu:  It is, it's doubt language. That's exactly true. And it's habit. For me it's been habit and I've really tried to work on, especially when I'm speaking in public, you know, I'm still working on editing the thoughts in my own head. That's going to be a lifelong journey, I think.

Heather Newman:  I know I wish Grammarly could be stuck in there or something.

Karuana Gatimu:  I know, right? Something exactly. I wish that, you know, but at least when I speak in public, I very much try not to minimize my talent. I have talent. People pay me for it. Why am I the one that's minimizing it? That makes absolutely no sense. You know, so, but it's a journey.

Heather Newman:  Well, it's like doing it before somebody else does it to you.

Karuana Gatimu:  Right.

Heather Newman:  That's usually the thought process.

Karuana Gatimu:  Cause I'm anticipating how my career was 25 years ago that imprinted upon me. And the truth is it's not like that today. And I also have to accept that some things have changed, and for the better. So that's not always easy for me to do. I am a grown dog. I won't call myself an old dog, but I'm a grown dog and I still have to learn new tricks sometimes and let the change wash over me and be in the present era instead of the old one.

Heather Newman:  I think it's interesting in looking at, you know, you and I are in the similar, I would say, you know, grown dog bracket

Karuana Gatimu:  Hashtag grown dog. We just made a

Heather Newman:  Grown dog. And it is interesting looking at, you know, people that are, you know, a generation ahead of us and then the generation, you know, younger and you know, how they fit in the mix and how we have conversations with them and there's this sort of wave of sort of, you know, there's a push, there's a lot going on in our world right now and I really, it's interesting making sure all voices get heard.

Karuana Gatimu:  Absolutely. And some of the most valuable conversations I have, and they're not official reverse mentoring relationships, but there's a lot of young women that I know who find me through one way or another and I add them to my mentoring circle or whatever inside Microsoft. And they are so important to me. They keep me fresh, they keep me connected, they helped me understand things from a different point of view. They also help me understand the persistence of certain things. As an African American woman, you know, in a technical field, there's not that many of us. It is definitely changing for sure. But we are, you know, kind of one more step in the kind of diversity and inclusion pattern there. And so there are certain things, especially in certain parts of this country, that we haven't healed yet in terms of being nice to one another. And you know, part of me gets angry about that part of me gets frustrated and part of me just digs my heels in. I am determined not to allow limiting ideas have an impact on me or mine. And so I take that mine pretty broadly. And so, you know, I just want to do everything I can to again, make that neon path for people to expand any way they want to in an authentic way. You know?

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. And I think, you know, like, I know you do this, I do this, we both travel a lot extensively throughout the world and you know, I just got back from India and, you know, you're going to all kinds of places as well. And you know, I think that's the other thing with this, when you do this kind of work also understanding that, you know, you have to, one way to talk about diversity, inclusion and belonging here is very different in different places in the world. And we were in Puerto Rico and it was like Puerto Rico is diverse because of its history. And it's not the nicest history either. You know what I mean? So you, you have to also think about that. You can't just sort of pop in and be like, hi, la, la, la, you know?

Karuana Gatimu:  Right. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  And that's super important too.

Karuana Gatimu:  Well, and you know, to me that goes again to those listening skills. I think in the US and we're not, we're not trained in that. You know, there's a public speaking course you take in college, there's not an active listening one unless you're a psych major. So, you know, of course I was, so I did. But I think that definitely traveling has certainly informed my thinking about listening, about these topics. To your exact point, it's so different in so many other areas. And of course, I'm Kenyan American, right? My father's from Kenya and when I went and visited there, I became very clearly aware of how different my life would be had I grown up there instead of here. And I want to be really clear. I'm not saying it's better or worse, I'm just saying different, right? I mean, you know, had I lived on the farm where my grandmother lived, you know, my father's mother. There's not a lot of bandwidth there. You know, it's an agricultural community. There's not a lot of wealth there. You go into the city and of course there is, but the gap between the haves and the have nots is very, very clear. And the access to education, especially for women, young girls and women is very, you know, questionable sometimes. It's not equal amongst everyone. So, you know, given those things, I'm really clear about the opportunity that I have working here. Sometimes I pinch myself that I ended up in Microsoft, one of the best companies in the world and the kind of role that I have that I get to really have an impact. And I have absolutely zero intention of wasting that. Because I could be an awesome chicken farmer right now, you know, and that would be fine, but instead I have a different opportunity and that opportunity allows me to empower others and that's what I am all about, you know? So whether I'm doing it for Teams or whatever product I'm doing it for. What I like about the product though, I'd have to say is never before in my career has my professional life and the product I'm working on dovetailed and complimented so perfectly what I am personally passionate about. And for me that's my career success. Everything I'm personally passionate about, I get to work on as a part of my daily job and that is an earned gift, you know, and I'm very grateful for it. It's definitely something new I'd say in the last four or five years that's come together and continues to evolve. So you know, if folks out there, if you don't feel that, like go after it, figure out what it is one step at a time. Mine has continued to evolve. It wasn't like I had some perfect plan, there is no such thing as a perfect plan. Note to self for all the PM's out there, there is no perfect plan. Perfect does not exist. You have to just be nimble and like figure it out.

Heather Newman:  I was listening, I saw one of those, you know Gary B? I saw one of his, and he was talking to a 22 year old the other day and she called in and was asking questions cause she wants to be a millionaire at 25 and all of this stuff and he was like, no, you will not do that. He's like, maybe at 36. He's like, what did you do this weekend? Did you hang out? Did you go do this, do that? And she's like, I worked with my mom and dadada. And he's like, for real? She's like, yeah. And he's like, you know what I did in my twenties? Worked all the time because I want the long game. You know? And so, there's talent and there's where you're plopped into the world and then there's hustle.

Karuana Gatimu:  There's hustle. Yeah, I definitely, you know, and the other thing also is about priorities. Why? My question to that woman would have been, why do you want to be a millionaire? What do you think that's going to get you? Because I guarantee you, I feel like I have more freedom than a lot of those folks. I have freedom, I have impact, I have respect in my community. I have all of the things I ever dreamed of and a wonderful personal life, and all that stuff that goes with that. So, you know, money's not the answer. Wish for something else. Okay. Just out there, just don't wish for money. Wish for something else. Wish for freedom, wish for health, wish for something that is meaningful versus, you know, the financial reward. Look, the only reason I can say that is because all my bills are paid and my car starts, because that wasn't always the case in my life. But the truth is that that's not what I really care about now. Now that I do have a little money in the bank and my car does start every time I put my key in it, I'd come to realize that that's not what I should be wishing for.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is about that, is that it happens to all of us and at different periods of time. You know, it's like you can be doing really well and all of a sudden the bottom falls out of things. You know, and a lot of the time, you don't always see that or hear it from people. But that happens and it happens to a lot of us and it's just, you know, I remember not too long ago when you're like, oh my goodness, this debt or this thing happened or this, you know, disease or whatever, all those things can come up. And that's the other thing about, I think the belonging piece of this. I think is so important and I know you do too, is that, it's like cultivating beautiful, deep, strong, friendships.

Karuana Gatimu:  So important because that's what's going to carry you through. And you know, I absolutely know the difference in that. When 9/11 happened, I was in the first year and a half of owning my own company and all of my customers were in New York.

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Karuana Gatimu:  And that, that destruction of my business in 30 seconds. Because nobody's, you know, I did marketing consulting and website design and event management and production. Nobody cared. Nobody is doing that. Everything came to a screeching halt in a way that no MBA program is ever going to teach you how to manage. That was the best business administration course I ever had managing through an instantaneous downturn. Right.

Heather Newman:  With one of the most tragic things.

Karuana Gatimu:  Yes, exactly. And you know, the tech bubble bursting and all these things happened and yeah, that changed my life in an instant. I had to figure out how to pivot and it was extremely difficult and very stressful and actually really contributed to the demise of my first marriage, for sure, because of that level of stress.

Heather Newman:  You drop a pebble into a lake and people think, you know, it's just that person. In my personal life too, I've had some really major traumatic things happen and you know, and that's on such a global level and some of the things happened that, well, the thing that happened this week in New Zealand, it rocks everybody in that community. It rocks the world. It rocks our global energy. Our global consciousness. It's like the lessons that you get out of those things. You're just like, what's the silver lining? And, well, there isn't a silver lining, but it's a confusing time, but it also, you have to figure it out and go to the next step of the next day. Step by step.

Karuana Gatimu:  I'm sure that the folks, you know, the two MVPs that we lost, I know we had a moment of silence for one of the gentlemen here and then I was reading online. There was a second identified. You know, I know there's no silver lining for their family, but what I will say is that the depth of depravity that we're seeing in some of these violent attacks just makes the work we're doing in diversity, inclusion and belonging and empowering everyone, all the more important. I believe that the cornerstone of a lot of this strife comes from the inequality of class that exists around the world. You know, if you were in Venezuela is another situation, people are struggling for food, right? Like, if the, you know, I stood there just the other day, standing there looking at my pantry and it is overflowing with food. And there was a beautiful Time picture of the protests that are going on down there. And I was just thinking again, it's the luck of geography, right? And, you know, born here, living here, I can go to Safeway and go to the grocery store and get whatever I want, assuming that I have a job because not everyone here does. But I really think that we have to, and in technology in particular we can use technology to democratize opportunity. And I am so dedicated to that and I'm just so happy to work in a place where I know that the leadership is also dedicated to really empowering others. That's not just some, some mission statement. It's actually a thing.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. We have got more MVPs out and about. So I want to ask you one more question. We talked, we dipped into sort of personal life a bit. And just so I know how, I know your busy schedule, I mean you and I catch up like in brief text messages and on Teams and you know, this, that, yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah. And then luckily we get to see each other in person quite a bit, but how do you turn off? How do you get away from things and you know, just take a moment and stuff?

Karuana Gatimu:  It's really easy for me. I don't have a problem unplugging. I really never have.

Heather Newman:  I don't either, really. So I get it.

Karuana Gatimu:  You know, but a lot of people do. First off, I love what I do so it doesn't feel like work to me, number one. Number two, when I go home, my dogs and my husband, you know, they deserve my attention and I give it to them. I'm not one of those people that's in my phone 24/7. I know how to turn it off. I don't have on notifications on my phone because I'm on it all the time. And when I'm not, it's because I need to not be on it. And so nobody questions, you know, my commitment to my role and I'm not neurotic about it. You know, if my boss really needs to find me, she has my cell phone number, she'll call. So I'm not worried about that. And also I love to cook. You can't think about Microsoft Teams or SharePoint when you're chopping onions, you just can't. So I really use cooking as my thing and I love to do that. But you know, and maybe it's because of the things I've been through in the past. I'm not at all willing to sacrifice my personal life for my career. I already did that once, wasn't good. And I'm a better person in my career because of the absolute sanctity and happiness of my marriage and my home with my two dogs, which I post a lot about on Twitter. So, you know, they're really, really important to me. And they are the, you know, literally the wind beneath my wings. I would not be as successful as I am today without my husband. He is one of my chief cheerleaders and he's so supportive and so I just try to give it back, you know, when I'm there. So, yeah, I don't have problem with that, but I tell you, those notifications, everybody seems addicted to notifications on their phone. Turn them off for a week. Who cares?

Heather Newman:  It's the experiment, a great experiment to do.

Karuana Gatimu:  Experiment, because you know something, I don't know, I'm not doing brain surgery here. I'm doing Microsoft Teams adoption and yes, things are important, but nobody's going to bleed out if I don't see that issue for another 20 minutes or an hour or until the next morning. I'm entitled to get my sleep. And we are in a worldwide business and so I do have to be pretty hardcore about that. Otherwise I really could work 24/7. Because of, you know, European schedule, India, Africa, I mean, people are always up and always have questions. So I definitely do that. But let's be clear, I do work a lot of hours when I'm working. I work a lot of hours and I love it. I love what I do. I love the people. I love the challenge. To me, this is my time. And I just want to rock it. I don't want to waste this opportunity to help others. I just don't think it's going to come back like this again in this particular way. And I have a lot of energy right now, so I want to leave something behind. I'm on a bit of a mission.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I hear ya. I know. I think about, I think I just wrote something about, you know, about International Women's Day. I was like, in 200 years, I want to be part of the brave people in the world that helped us find our equality and balance.

Karuana Gatimu:  That's exactly right. This is our chance. You know, I have the energy to still do the work, you know, maybe 50 - 60 hours a week, but I have the wisdom now of what work to do. And I don't much waste my time on stuff that isn't impactful. Politics, personal, one way or the, I just don't because life is too short. How many years do I have left? Really? I mean think about it, you know? I mean, and so, I just feel like now's the time to hit it hard and then I can look back on everything we've done and be happy about it. And you will be a big part of that by the way.

Heather Newman:  And high five. Yeah, I think that's right on. I was, I dunno, a few years ago I was in a meeting or at an event, Life is Beautiful in Vegas. It was the first one, a festival. And I was in a room and a guy started talking and he was like, well, I'm 42 years old. So it with the life expectancy of a man that means that I have about, I dunno, like say 40, 45 birthdays, Christmases, thanksgivings, blah, blah, blah, left. And I was like, I wasn't really paying attention to him cause I was literally at a bar with a friend because it was in a bar. And I was like, what? And I turned around, I was 42 at the time. And I turned around and I was like, nobody did the math for me before.

Karuana Gatimu:  I've done the math.

Heather Newman:  Well, I'm doing the math now.

Karuana Gatimu:  That's right. That's why I'm on a mission. There's not that much time. And so, you know, because the kind of changes that I want to continue to drive is not small and the things I want to leave behind, you know, and this isn't, look, maybe this stuff I'm going to leave behind in 20 years, nobody will care about. But I don't care. I care about it now. And it's not about other people's opinions, it's about my opinion of myself. And, and maybe part of it is I don't have children so the things that I do are my legacy. And of course, there's a lot of young people in my life, so they are too, but yeah, I just feel like, you know, I can sit around and watch Netflix later, you know what I mean? I can do a lot of those things later and I also want to feel like when I finally do like retire with my husband and we're traveling and what have you, I don't want to feel like I left something undone. So I'm super focused on that. And besides, you know, with everything going on in the world, now's the time to lean in. If you've got communication skills and you've got real empathy that you can action, then now's the time to bring it into the world because it's needed. There's too much of all this divisive, aggressive conversation that lacks empathy and that does nothing but divide us further. So we need to be the alternate voice. Why not?

Heather Newman:  We talked about humans in tech. You know, and just humans in the world.

Karuana Gatimu:  Yeah. Just being human and we need more examples of that. And you know, I feel like I was gifted with the gift of gab by my family. I want to turn it into a force for good cause I've certainly used my talent of her talking for not good things. So I'm making it up for that. I've weaponized my speech more than once. So I'd like to turn it into something that is more meaningful than that.

Heather Newman:  Well, I think you have, and you continue to do. So.

Karuana Gatimu:  Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate, I always appreciate, I appreciate you, I appreciate everything that you do and thank you for having me on your cast. Awesome!

Heather Newman:  This is a makeup for a session that got lost with a bad mic kit. So you know, so we're always learning.

Karuana Gatimu:  Always learning, yup.

Heather Newman:  Always learning, you know. So, alright, well Karuana thank you again.

Karuana Gatimu:  You're welcome.

Heather Newman:  So everyone, that was another Mavens Do It Better podcast and you can find us at the usual places on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Spotify and at the mavensdoitbetter.com website and we will put all of Karuana's information in the show notes so you can follow all the goodness that she is doing. Thanks everyone. And here's to another big blue, beautiful spinning sphere day. Woo-hoo.

Episode 32: Photography & Wine Maven Alan Campbell

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again with a another episode of Mavens Do It Better where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. I am thrilled today to bring you a wonderful friend who I've known a long time now, Mr. Alan Campbell. Alan, say hi to everybody.

Alan Campbell:  Hello everybody.

Heather Newman:  Awesome. So Alan and I, gosh, it's been, I don't know about, is it 10 years maybe? I don't know. I think so. Something like that.

Alan Campbell:  Think so. I think we met in 2006 actually, 2006, yeah.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Yeah.

Alan Campbell:  It's been a long 12 years almost 13.

Heather Newman:  Yes, 12 years. That's awesome. Yeah. So everyone, Alan, is a beautiful, beautiful photographer and we used to live in the same neighborhood, in the same city. In Graton, California, in Sonoma County, Sebastopol, Graton. And so we knew each other in the neighborhood and not only is he a photographer, but he owns a winery. And we, you know, happen to go to some events out in the desert together and all of those things.

Alan Campbell:  A serendipitous meeting in the sand.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Oh, very nice. I like that. That's fantastic. So I guess tell everybody, like, I'm definitely going to make sure that everybody can see all your beautiful photography on the show notes and all of that. But, how long have you been shooting and where did you get your start in photography because you're just, it's just so just yummy what you do. So tell everybody about that will you?

Alan Campbell:  Well, it's kind of a roundabout. I did, I went to school in San Jose at San Jose State for, I started out in business school and I hated filling out scantrons, you know, that's all we did. So, I changed over to an art major, which much to the chagrin of my father. And then I was doing graphic design. I started doing photography and I kind of switched. I really liked photography when I was younger and, you know, I just kind of leaned into it in college and then I took a trip and did a semester down in Mexico City and I happened to have a camera. And I went around to the markets and to places and I fell in love with, you know, that kind of imagery. And that really kind of started it for me. And I moved back and continued school and I got my degree in art, emphasis was photography. I started working in the commercial world down there and it was more like, we called it chips and toast, but they were, you know, high tech, everything was high tech. We were doing clean room stuff, we were doing machinery and things of that nature. No food whatsoever. But I assisted for several people down there and then also in the city. And then I took a leap and I came home and said, well, I'm going to put my shingle out start. So I got some help from the parental units, which was fantastic. And I lived at home and I started shooting for clients out of my sister's bedroom. And I actually brought people to the bedrooms.

Heather Newman:  Wow, you're a bedroom-ista of a garage-ista, right?

Alan Campbell:  Yes, I am. That is right. From there it just took off. I, you know, I did some high tech up here when there was high tech up here. There's, there's not, and that started me in the mode of doing professional work. And that was in 1990 little late 90', early 91'. The high tech kind of started to dry up and change and I started to shoot more winery kind of profile stuff, a lot of portraits, a lot of winemakers. Started doing more bottle work and that led me into more complex things, you know, all across the whole wine industry. And I started doing food with wine and that led me into more food. And that's kind of where I ended up today is doing a lot of food and wine and you know, lifestyle stuff involving people, food and wine.

Heather Newman:  It just keeps evolving. Yeah, yeah. I mean the food, so shots your Instagram account. I mean, I just, I can't, it's hard to look at sometimes because it makes me so hungry. It's so gorgeous.

Alan Campbell:  Thank you very much for the kind words. For many years, you know, I was shooting the winemakers and shooting that and had interest in wine. I moved to where I currently live, which happens to be a half mile from where I grew up. And I moved there 20 years ago and a portion of my property was, basically I had, I was letting it out to some people who had horses. And so they, I went down to check on the horses one day and they were gone. People were gone, everything was gone. They just up and left and didn't pay me the rent. It was no big deal. It's just, you know, it wasn't any large thing. But at that time, which was 2006, I, that same year I met you, I just was putting in my vineyard. And so I put in four acres of Pinot Noir and it's been a journey, I'll have to say. A labor of love, that's for sure.

Heather Newman:  The wine is delicious though. So, I mean,

Alan Campbell:  Thank you. It's a very, very nice product. I partnered with a friend of mine who I'd known for quite a few years in 2012 and we put our first vintage out in 2013. So when I put the grapes in 2006, I had designed the vineyard to be one bottle of wine, but I sold the grapes for a number of years and I still do sell a portion. Now, we finally in 2013 we were able to, you know, make that bottle of wine and we've continued on each year. You know, it's been, it's very nice. It's nice to see something complete. Now the tough part, like they say, they all say it's easy to make the wine it's hard to sell it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Right. And tell everybody the name of it.

Alan Campbell:  The name of the winery is a mash between myself and my winemaker, Craig Strehlow and Campbell, Alan Campbell. So, it's called Camlow Cellars. So that's the name of the winery, Camlow Cellars. So we have two products right now that we currently make. One's our estate Pinot Noir, and we call it The Big Pig, Magna Porcum because it has a crest on it. That's my family crest, and it's a boar.

Heather Newman:  It's the year of the boar.

Alan Campbell:  And then we make another. Yeah, the year of the boar. That's correct. And the other one we have it's called the Sus Volans, which is flying pig. And it's a rose that is made from the, you know, the same grapes. But they're usually, what happens when you're making wine is you go through and you kind of cull out grapes that aren't ripening and to let the other ones that are farther along ripen. It's a pretty common practice, but they just throw the grapes on the ground and I'm looking at it going, hey there's tons grapes on the ground. So I said, why don't you just pick them and press them? We just take them right to the press and press it and we get this just beautiful, awesome Rose. So that's been a fun project to bring around. That's our second, third year of doing that this year. It's really been exciting.

Heather Newman:  That's right. Oh my, that's so funny that that's the, it's kind of like the throwaway grapes, if you will.

Alan Campbell:  It is. And we're actually taking stuff that we would normally just throw on the ground and we're making this fantastic wine out of it. It's really cool. We're going to get you some so you can sip with some of your friends.

Heather Newman:  Yes, yes. Alan and I have been talking about how we, we'll look into having some wine from his cellar for some of our Creative Maven maybe guests and myself of course. So that sounds wonderful.

Alan Campbell:  Indeed, indeed. That's the way you do it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's awesome. So that makes, that's, that's cool. I mean that must obviously keep you, I mean I know it keeps you busy between the photography and then the, gosh, the winery and I mean winery work is every day, right? Like, cause not everybody knows that, I guess. Or is it, like is it you're out there every day? Tell people about like day in the life of a winemaker.

Alan Campbell:  I'm not really the winemaker per se. I do help during harvest time. But Craig, he's the winemaker and so he has his other day job is a winemaker. So he's making wine doing stuff all the time. But I mean with our production level, you don't have to be working on it every day. You know, you hurry up and wait. The current can wait is what we call it. You know, you'll get stuff done and it sits around in a barrel or a tank or a bottle and you're waiting for it to be ready. I probably spend more time I have to deal with the vineyard. That's what I do, I'm the grower. And so I'm out in the vineyard, you know, taking care of the tractor work, mowing, helping, you know, do some of the pruning, helping do some of the, you know, leafing, things like that. Of course, I have other fellows, guys who have been with me for quite a while now who help me out in that aspect.

Heather Newman:  Right, right. So in winery terminology to be correct about it, you are the grower, you deal with the vineyard and Craig is the winemaker. I got it. Okay. That makes sense.

Alan Campbell:  Yeah, that is correct.

Heather Newman:  Okay. That's cool. Wow. And so, and how long, so it was 2006 and then when was your first bottle?

Alan Campbell:  Well, the first time we made wine was in 2013. But I sold my grapes to some other, you know, very well known a Pinot people. And we kind of said, well, let's, uh, maybe we should be foolish and try this ourselves. So,

Heather Newman:  Well, it's foolish then it paid off, for sure.

Alan Campbell:  The first thing they tell you, they said, they tell you that the only way to make it in the wine industry is that you got to start out with, you know, with a fortune. You don't get the fortune from being in the wine industry.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah. And that, and that's pretty typical, isn't it Alan? Of like this, and you know, I mean, I lived in Sonoma county for almost 10 years and, in Sebastopol there, so, and that's, is it green? Is it the Green Valley?

Alan Campbell:  Yeah, we're very, we're a little bit unique. We have a special kind of a classification for the Russia River. The Russian River Valley appellation is huge. It covers the whole Santa Rosa plain, a little north and south, and also goes toward the West where Graton is, where you know. Then we start to get into some rolling hills, and we start to get into different microclimates of elevation and exposure to whatever direction you're facing. And so this area is considered the Green Valley. It's called the Green Valley portion of the Russian River Valley. So we can't call it Green Valley because there's another growing region that's called Green Valley as well. So it's kind of smashed in between and kind of overlaps the Russian River Valley and the Sonoma Coast appellations. So it's, but it's one of the prime places in the world to grow Pinot Noir.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, Sonoma County is so great. I mean, and then you've got Dry Creek up there and you've got, I mean, just, it's like I love it going to restaurants all over the world and I'm always like, I know where that is. They were my neighbor at one time. That's super fun. That's so cool.

Alan Campbell:  It's definitely a blessing to live here. And, you know, I've been fortunate to grow up here. I've seen it change a lot, but you know, that's part of, that's part of existence change is inevitable.

Heather Newman:  I mean it's, and just also the fires and the flooding that just happened. I mean, it's just that area, I mean, y'all have had, just watching all of that has been so ugh, you know? But it's like everybody is so resilient and amazing there. That's the thing too,

Alan Campbell:  Yeah. We got, we got our butt kicked by Mother Nature a couple of times and fortunately people here are resilient. It's unfortunate that it's not, the quality of recovery is not across the board. So there are a lots of friends in mind that they just gave up and left, just got out or they, you know, they're struggling so much to get their houses back to where they were. But because of costs tripling by the time, you know, you're insurance is not covering everything. So it's, it's been a very difficult process for a lot of people, but people will always want to live here. It's a, the weather's beautiful. The place is beautiful and

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it's paradise in so many ways. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And you make it, like the things that come out from the winery and then your photography make it, I just am like, who wouldn't want to live there with what you're showing?

Alan Campbell:  It is, and I travel as well, and I know it's definitely neat to call a place like this home. That’s for sure.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I loved calling it home for a while as well. So yeah. And so with, you've got some cool new things coming out. So will you talk about the cookbook a little bit and tell people about that?

Alan Campbell:  Yeah. Well, we just completed a cookbook. It was kind of something that had been toying around with the Justin Wangler and his team at Kendall Jackson Wine Company. So, we for years have been taking pictures for him and he talked about a cookbook and we talked about it cookbook. And finally all the pieces fell together last year. And we did a book called Season and it's, it's pretty monumental. I would have to say it's really, really cool. It is a four season cookbook and it has over 300 recipes. And it's got this awesome photography that covers, you know, not just that I did it, but just, it covers all aspects of season and of different foods, different, you know, stuff about ingredients, garden, people sharing. It's a really, really fun, was a fun project to be a part. Yeah, that's out now. It's, I think it's on Amazon. It's called Season, hold on one second, where's my? Hold on one second, please hold.

Heather Newman:  We'll put it in the show notes, for sure. But yeah, I had been talking about it and I was like, that sounds unbelievable. I love Kendall Jackson wine. Their, what is their one? It's like the estate or the vintner? Oh, Vintners Reserve. I love their Vintners Reserve across the board. When I'm, especially at like a party for like a lot of people when I have a few bottles of wine around for like not a high price point. Fantastic. Like I love their stuff.

Alan Campbell:  They've been making a solid product for years. I started shooting with them back in like the late nineties. I've done projects with them off and on for years. So they're, you know, it's a different organization now that Jess has passed away, but they make great wines there. They’re fun people, it was a great project working with the chef, Justin and Tracy and their pastry chef Robert Yaddo of Buttercup. And the foods were just, it was awesome. They were just fantastic stuff.

Heather Newman:  So when you're shooting and you're making these, I have your photography page up and I'm like now getting like wicked hungry, but like, do you, obviously people are making food and do you all eat it afterwards or do you like, like what's, what happens with this? Like tell us about that. Like setting up a food shot, you know?

Alan Campbell:  You know more and more that type of style of shooting, yes, the food is edible. There are other times when we're doing stuff that's much more technical where we're doing things to the food where you don't want to eat it or it's been sitting there for a long time, it's just not, not a good idea. Yeah. All the stuff that you see we ate a lot of it for lunch, you know, that was our lunch. You know, we got to take home stuff. So they were just great. There's a recipe in the book, these fried chicken tenders. Oh my God. Yeah, it was just fantastic. I'll have to send you down, when I send you some wine, I'll send you a book.

Heather Newman:  Yes please. That sounds wonderful. Yeah, no, I just, cause I was like, you've got to eat this stuff cause this just looks so good. And yeah, I was curious about like what's, cause it all looks very real. You know, like you've just served it and you know, it's got that look of like I just took this out of the oven or I just tossed this and here it is. Right?

Alan Campbell:  And that's, that's the intent. You want it to look really, you want to make it feel appetizing rather than, you know, too kind of perfect. Yeah. Some people require that though, depending on what the shoot you're doing. And you know, if you're doing something for packaging, you know, a lot of times the dishes, you know, it's much different. Half of it's filled with plastic and you know, you put the meat on top of the plastic and then you melt the cheese and it's not an edible dish. So that it's just a different type of thing depending on what your result is.

Heather Newman:  Right. I got ya. Cool. And with the photos, you also I know are doing a,, like content for folks like becoming a content provider. So will you tell everybody about that because that's super cool too. Cause it's like you can you like get Alan's wonderful shots of different things because you don't do just photography because you do video too. Tell everybody about that because it's awesome.

Alan Campbell:  Yeah, we do a lot of video now. You know, everything's gone to video. Much more video is being shot for social media, for, you know, for small ad campaigns, for website stuff, for different things of that nature. You can see it on your phone all the time on your Google everywhere. And so what we do is we formed a company up here called Big Match Media. And what Big Match does is they are a visual content creator. So you need a video of your, you know, your juice being poured into a glass. We can do that. You need stills of that, we could do that as well too. But so we're reaching out to people, you know, all over the west coast at this point to, you know, who need content creation. Because people need, this is a giant monster that needs to be fed and 15 second videos for Instagram, you know, they're just, you know, we create those, all aspects of content creation. So if you need basic little stuff, we do that as well as real complex things. I mean we just finished a whole series of recipes for a pickle company called Bubbies Pickles and 24 recipes that are all broken down into, you know, less than a minute and you take a, then we do a little highlights where those are less than 15 seconds. So all that, you know, we put it together, we do a lot of it right here in the studio and we also go out and do creations on location for different corporate stuff. And it's, yeah, it's a fun aspect. I've got a couple of the young guys working with me now. Um, they're fantastic and excited, energetic. It's, it's good to have young people around to whip you into shape.

Heather Newman:  That's for sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, from a marketing, putting my marketing hat on and, you know, yeah. I think people maybe don't realize that, you know, all those like little teeny videos and all that, or like a sequence of videos and all of that. You know, somebody does have to shoot them no matter what they are and where they are and how they are. Right. And you know, there is, I think there's the do it yourselfer kind of look and feel, but I just, you know, there's nothing like something that's done well with professionals that's in a studio, you know what I mean, with the right lighting and like,

Alan Campbell:  It's a difference. We get a lot of people who, you know, use their phone and they, uh, you know, the phone takes really cool pictures. It's great, it takes great. But a lot of times, you know, what professional, you know, kind of imagery brings to the party is the fact that it's lit well, it's thought out and in its process. It says, it tells a story that the brand, you know, the way the branding people want it to go. So you can go and use a lot of, you know, tricks and snaps and stuff like that. But, you know, when it's a well thought out campaign or, you know, executed photo shoot or video shoot, you can see the difference. The production value is there. Unfortunately, you know, having production value will cost money and you know, but you're getting a product that's going to be, hopefully better for you.

Heather Newman:  Totally worth it, I think. Yeah, absolutely. No, I believe in that and yeah, I mean, I think we have seen the shifts with, you know, YouTube and iPhones and you know, Instagram and all of that stuff. But it's kind of like, I equate it a little bit to how content, just content in general has changed, right? And what content costs and what it's worth. And all of that. And I feel like even with books, like we had this whole moment of, everybody was like, we don't buy books anymore. Everything's on the Kindle and the e-reader and everybody Audible. I feel like I've seen more people buy more books lately or they buy the book, the Kindle and the Audible edition. So they're buying three times as many things.

Alan Campbell:  Right. Depending on how people read too. I mean, for a traveler like yourself, having a Kindle is a great deal. Having an Audible, listening to podcasts. I mean all of this information that you can gather and you know, but having a book in front of you being able to sit down and read is, you know, it's still an escape.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I feel that way about video and photography, I think as well, you know, I think there's been like, you can do things yourself, you know, and you can, you know, the phones are getting better and all of that kind of thing. But I do feel like I've been watching the industry and I feel like that, like, I don’t know, professional stuff is back, like, or you know what I mean? Like not that it was gone, but I just feel like people are doing more of that because they want to, like they're putting more money and time into their brands. You know?

Alan Campbell:  I think they're looking at it differently. I mean, I have seen this swath from, I started out in film and I, you know, I trudged through the whole aspect of film into the new digital age. And you know, that was a painful process, truthfully, because the quality that you got with film for years and years and years was, you know, was the peak. And then it took a while for the digital, you know, capture systems to catch up . Now that they're so convenient for people, you know, you get a lot of what we call throwaway photography and throwaway, you know, videos where people really don't care because, you know, they could just keep doing it. And so, it comes back to the fact of, you know, do you want to buy, you know, a Yugo or do you want to buy a BMW and

Heather Newman:  You just dated yourself because lots of people don't even know what Yugo is. I'll put it in the show notes.

Alan Campbell:  Note: What is a Yugo? We're just finding they'll tend to go to people who are, you know, cheaper we'll say, less expensive to get things done. But the level of quality, it can be very apparent. So we just try to steer people in a direction, say what's good for you and your budget and what is it that you want to say? And we try to give them the best, you know, guidance on how to get what they want for their money. It's a lifelong challenge. There's always going to be somebody who's, you know, in a different price range than you, or a different level of experience and you just want to make sure that it ultimately that you provide, you know, quality that does its job. So I really like to see my images working. And it's fun when you're, you know, you're doing something and you're driving down a freeway or I was flying into Dallas and I'm looking out the plane and there's one of my images on a billboard, you know. I'm like, I go, that looks pretty cool. I'm kind of happy about that. And then I fly out of Dallas and I fly into Houston a couple of days later and hey, there's another one. So it was, that's the most gratifying thing is actually getting to see your work do stuff. Because a lot of times as photographers we don't get to see the end result. We'll just kind of stumble across it. You'll walk in a store and, oh, that's.

Heather Newman:  Right, you're like, that's my photo.

Alan Campbell:  Yeah. So it's, and it's good to see that content being used in the way it's supposed to, You know, it's an ever changing adaptation. We're probably shooting, I would say, more video than ever. So that aspect has grown. And, you know, I'm still doing lots of stills, like I just completed a small campaign for a winery. And, but the fact that like we're putting out these small snippet tasting notes. 14.2 seconds long because that's the Instagram way, but what it does is it introduces you to the wine with a bottle and then you see it poured and then you see the label and then you're hearing that very small snippet within that 14 seconds about this wine and you know where to get it. And it's basically a virtual tasting note that we create, you know, just video itself and then using a voice over. So, so yeah, it's kind of a new thing that people are doing and we're just trying to make as much we can, pushing people to do good stuff , do it well, so you can hear it. You can see it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. It's about value, you know, and like you said, like having an image work with the brand and do what they're looking for and telling a story. I mean everything we do, especially, I mean, in the marketing world and, and all of us, it's all about telling stories. Right? And if you can tell it beautiful visuals and images than like win, you know, so that's great. And I know that, so 2016 vintage is releasing, is that right?

Alan Campbell:  Correct. Yeah, we are coming up and I think it's going to be in early May or no, late April is when we're going to be releasing it. I don't have the date, but I will make sure that you get some, prior to the date so you can, you know, pop a cork and enjoy.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think maybe we should do some sort of a, I don't know. We'll do something around when we launch this podcast to celebrate that for sure. I have to figure it out, but yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah, no, that's awesome. And you know, I want to, so Mexico City, you were saying with your camera, was there, I'd love to know what that moment or the spark, like, can you pinpoint that moment with photography or camera, like the one photo or the one thing that was in it or something that you were like, yes. You know, like you were, it really made you go, this is what I want to do.

Alan Campbell:  There was, after I was finished in school, down there, I traveled, I went around and I took a bus and, you know, traveled down to Chiapas that area. And I was in a very small town called Palenque. And we were going there to see some ruins and waterfalls and stuff like that. And they had a market that was a Sunday market. And, we got there on Saturday night. We got up in the morning and I went to go look for, you know, just stuff and took my camera and wandered around the markets. I had been at all the other markets up in Mexico City, which is, there's a huge, beautiful market there. And I mean, just everything you could think of, you know, just in front of your eyes and the smells, the encounters, the textures, the colors. But I was sitting there and I was watching this lady on a blanket who was selling, she was just selling tomatoes and you know, she had all these beautiful tomatoes stacked up and, you know, they were sitting there and I started talking to her and, you know, asked if I could take her picture. And she finally agreed and then I just started taking pictures of, you know, her little stall. I just, you know, I sat there, as I was walking back there, I said, you know, this would be kind of interesting to be able to do all the time. And, you know, I spent the rest of my trip shooting, you know, tons of pictures of the ruins and just textures and things that, you know, compositionally I liked. And after getting back from that trip, you know, I had, you know, boxes of film, I started digging through them slowly and I saw that, you know, that I really, I liked what they, how they made me feel. I think that's ultimately when I'm doing stuff now. I look at the food and I look at the composition and I want to feel something from it, whether it's a still life that you can look at and you can interpret two to three different ways. And the light wraps around the, you know, the piece of glass and let's light go through it and it shows a sparkle and the shadow is casted and it leaves, as the shadow falls off the frame, it leaves to the imagination of where is it going. And you know, if you look at dishes, you know like food dishes where you know, you want to know how it was fixed because it has texture, it has feeling. And that's kind of what I try to evoke in my imagery. And I kind of got that from that, you know, that experience. That's where it started for me at least when I would, when I got back and I really was looking at that imagery and I was like, wow, this, I like this. I like that.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I definitely, thank you, that was gorgeous. And yeah, I think also, you know, sometimes people gloss over food or, like you know, food porn or that kind of thing. You're photography really makes me ask two questions when I see it. One, I want to, like you just said, I want to know who fixed it. Like I'm like, who made this? Like I'm so I, I don't know why, but I always want to know, I'm like, who made this? And then I'm also like, who is going to eat this? Or where is this party? You know what I mean, like I'm kind of like,

Alan Campbell:  I'll have to give one big shout out to the stylists that I work with and they, you know, I don't prepare all the food. I work a lot with the composition aspect and I work closely with them, but the stylists prepare the food and you know, they make things, you know, we obviously light them and make them look more dramatic or, and change the way the feel is through our composition and our lighting. But you know, they bring the food out and you know, they set it up a lot of times, 90% of the time and it looks, it just looks awesome. So, you know, stylists that I work with are, you know, they're top notch. It's really great

Heather Newman:  And it's cool, I mean like people, I think photography also sometimes can be seen as like a solo thing, right? Like people, a photographer, you know, and they think of like just one person with one camera. And you know, I think that

Alan Campbell:  No way, it takes a team effort and you know, I mean, I've got assistances and digital assistances and stylists and producers and prop people. All those people, it all that all comes into factor. You know, I may be the one who ends up clicking the shutter and making, you know, that portion of the decision. But there's a lot of other stuff that goes on behind it.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah. Well it's like any good art, there's all kinds of pieces that come together to make it awesome. Right? So, yeah, that's super cool. And then for the winery, I know, you know, came home with the land and the horses left and, you know, those people took off on the rent and it's like. I guess similar question as far as the winery goes, was it like, I mean, I know there's probably been moments when you were like, oh my God, I can't believe I did this. But, um,

Alan Campbell:  Every day. No, let's see, I have to say, for me there's no one bottle of wine that, you know, lit my world up and at least not prior to too putting in the vineyard. I liked the aspect of making wine. So I started making wines on my own with my father in law when he was alive in 92' and I made wines up until, you know, I think our last time we made some homemade stuff was in 2012. So we made a lot of wine, you know, you have to drink a lot of beer to make good wine. So I just, I was in a position where I was around a lot of people who were making wine, who were growing, they're all my friends. And, my friends tend to be the ones who are guys that are, you know, doing stuff they're outside or they're making wine. And so I started thinking that, well, I'm in a place, one of the places that is best for growing Pinot Noir in the whole world. The Green Valley section is one of the best. And so I said, well, I have this opportunity. I could do a small vineyard. And I decided that, well, I'll give it a try. So, I went around, and I talked to different vintners and different growers about clones and about, you know, different aspects of doing the vineyard, and picked clones that were not super popular at that time. But, my whole goal was to make a bottle of wine from the vineyard. So I comprised four clones, which are very, clones, for those who don't know, so it's just like, you know, you have a grape varietal, but a clone is an adaptation of that varietal. They're the same grape, it's Pinot Noir, but one is, you know, adapted to a different area and it's from you know, it's from like the Pommard section. So Pommard is a clone. There's one that was brought to California and it's called Mount Eden, that somebody could develop that in a different area. So that's known as the Mountain Eden clone. Different people developed different clones. So I picked four of those that I had available to me. And so that was more of the thing is how to get the vineyard up and running and how to, you know, grow it. And, wanting to make a bottle of wine myself came a little bit later. I started hanging out with some people who had good wine. They had really good wines and I had the opportunity to taste some, you know, very, very nice wine. Limited selection and stuff that, you know, kind of brought me to the point of saying, well, you know, my grapes are good enough to do this. And that was the whole idea in the beginning, so let's give that a go. But, so that's kind of where that came from. Just started as more of a project of something to hopefully bring some income in because, you know, the grapes that are out here are fairly expensive, but it also takes it, you know, you really don't realize how much time and energy it takes to, you know, take care of the vineyard. It's a lot of work. So, and I think my, I'm really surprised my wife hasn't killed me yet because not only do I have to, I have to do the vineyard, but then I took on the, you know, making the wine too. And that's been a, that's been a double headed monster and then put my business on top of that. Oh boy, let's get on the rollercoaster.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, no kidding. Well, I mean I think you, we have many different passions and that's, and they kind of, they blend in ways, you know, of course. So, I think it's super cool. I mean obviously you're a maker, you know what I mean? You make things, you are an artist, you're a creative. And so it all sort of, I mean, I understand it. I mean

Alan Campbell:  Some people can't, you know, they're so linear and, nothing against that. They have one thing they do really well then they don't, I'm kind of, I like to try a lot of things and do different stuff because I get bored easily. And so it's just, you know, it's been, it's been an interesting to try to, you know, to keep the passion up and, you know, especially when it's, when you're struggling with certain aspects of it. But, we're always ever changing and trying. Ultimately it's a fun project. It's been a very enlightening project.

Heather Newman:  Cool. Well that's super cool Alan. Yay. I just, I've always, Alan and I, we've, I've had wine with him over at my house when I lived in Sonoma County and it's always a pleasure to be around your positivity and just your gorgeous brain and just the way you look at the world. So I really, thank you for being on the podcast. Oh, say all the things again. So, the cellars are called?

Alan Campbell:  Our winery is Camlow Cellars and you can find us actually at Camlowcellers.com. So that's where we're located. My photography is Alan Campbell Photography and that's also AlanCampbellPhotography.com. You can find that there. And Big Match Media. The website is not working right now, but it's Big Match Media will be live very soon. It's going to be bigmatchmedia.com.

Heather Newman:  Match, like light the match.

Alan Campbell:  Exactly. And those are, you know, right now the three little things that are going on.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's awesome. Well, really I appreciate you being on and telling everybody about this. It's just a cool, like shooting food and just all of it. I love the sort of behind the scenes bird's eye view of these things. Cause you know, not everybody does this, you know, and I really have enjoyed having you teach me and listen about sort of how you do things and what you do. So I really appreciate that education it's cool.

Alan Campbell:  Well, I really appreciate the opportunity to come on and, you know, chat about my world. And, you know, what's brewing over here. It's a very neat thing to be able to tell your story. And often, you know, I don't get to do that cause I'm always making somebody else's story.

Heather Newman:  Well, awesome. Yay. Thank you so much Alan. So, and everybody, we will put show notes up and make sure you can find Alan and his beautiful photography and his delicious wine and all the good things around that. And you can find Mavens Do It Better up on iTunes, on Stitcher, on Spotify, up on our mavensdoitbetter.com website and subscribe and on Instagram and Twitter at Mavensdoitbetta. B E T T A. Alan, thank you again for being on.

Alan Campbell:  Thank you very much Heather. It's great to chat with you and I look forward to seeing you soon.

Heather Newman:  I know, I hope that, yes, yes, please. Yes, we have to do that. So, all right, everybody

Alan Campbell:  Safe travels.

Heather Newman:  Thank you. Everyone, here's to another episode and another beautiful big beautiful day on this spinning blue sphere. Thank you.

Episode 31: Broadway Maven Jim Kierstead

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone. Here we are again for another Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a spark to our world. I am sitting here in New York City, Manhattan. We're in Times Square yeah?

Jim Kierstead:  We're in Times Square. We're in the Hell's Kitchen area to be exact.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Hell's kitchen, Times Square. I am here with the lovely Jim Kierstead and I am so excited. I haven't seen you in forever.

Jim Kierstead:  I know. It's been crazy. I don't know how all this time went by.

Heather Newman:  And Jim, I'm so excited, Jim and I have known each other for a while now and we haven't seen each other in a while, but we were introduced by lovely and wonderful, talented Dan Holme, back, gosh, it's been a while now, that was for Side Show.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, it's about four years ago.

Heather Newman:  Four years ago. Yeah. So I really wanted to have Jim on because he is a producer, a theater producer and, and many other things as well. But, I was so excited and I've seen American Son. Yes?

Jim Kierstead:  Yup, we just had American Sonon Broadway.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. So I would love for you to talk about to our listeners, what does a producer do? And tell us about your life as a producer, because I know you've been doing this for a long time.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, it's going on 20 years. Well, you know, Heather, it's so funny because I think unless you're in this business, unless you're a producer or unless you're somebody who's connected, you don't really know what a producer does. You know, you look at the title page of the playbill and there's names above the title and nobody pays attention to them because they're not in the show and they didn't direct the show, and they didn't write the show. So, they just wonder who these people are. And a producer is really the person or group of people who are the business end of a show. So what they do is they find the property, they put the team together to present it, to work on it, to develop it, and then they raise the money to make it happen. And then they manage it, you know, from a marketing perspective, from a press perspective to try to keep the show going as long as possible and be lucrative for everybody, get some money back and get some, some profits hopefully, and then allow it to live, hopefully have a long life on the road and in other cities and then to get it eventually published and have the piece done all over the world. So that's kind of what a producer does.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, you're an arts VC.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah. I try. I try. Thank you.

Heather Newman:  I love it. Oh my goodness. And you, it's Broadway for you for the most part.

Jim Kierstead:  It's Broadway. Um, you know, I started about 20 years ago working to develop theater and it was because I was helping a friend, really. I was helping somebody who was a writer. She and her brother were writing a musical and super talented people and they needed somebody to give a little bit of money, but also somebody to run around and do some errands for them and be an extra set of hands and eyes and whatnot. So I learned this business just by starting helping these people out and I never necessarily thought I was going to do it again cause I come from the information technology world for many, many years and this world was very foreign to me, but I fell in love with it immediately. So I started developing work and then we got into Broadway over the years after investing in various shows. And over the last couple of years I've gotten involved with film and TV as well. So we just had a series that was on Amazon that won an Emmy award last year. So that was fun. It's called The Bay. Yeah, it was this really cool little series.

Heather Newman:  Oh wow! Congratulations.

Jim Kierstead:  Thank you so much. Thank you. So it's really fun because over all these years it used to be that theater was a little separate island and film was a separate island and TV was a separate island. And then all of a sudden as technology started catching up, it allowed all these parts, all these artistic areas to come together and cross. So a lot of people who just did one before, one of these areas, they can participate in all of them based on what the pieces is. So you can kind of choose the best medium.

Heather Newman:  Well, and you see like many Broadway actors coming into television for sure. It's like what was the, Bunheads?

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, that's right, right. Sutton Foster. She was in that one. Yeah. And a lot of the people go on to CSI. If you look, if you watch CSI or any of those kinds of shows, you'll see all the Broadway actors in there cause it's filmed in the New York area and they all go in and they actually make money doing that, which is fun.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's always nice, right? Oh my goodness. So, so what do you have that's on right now?

Jim Kierstead:  So, we have Kinky Bootsthat's been running for six years. So that actually concludes on Broadway on April 7th.

Heather Newman:  You know, I know Mr. Burrows.

Jim Kierstead:  Do you really?

Heather Newman:  Yes.

Jim Kierstead:  Oh, that's great.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. He was an actor at SRT.

Jim Kierstead:  Oh, fantastic!

Heather Newman:  Santa Rosa Summer Repertory Theater.

Jim Kierstead:  Oh, that's wonderful.

Heather Newman:  Yes. Shout-out, yeah! That's amazing.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah. So that concludes in April after a really great six year run. We were, you know, we had a production in London. We're in Toronto, we had an Australian tour, we had a US tour. A UK tour is going on right now. So hopefully that has a nice long life ahead of it, you know, even after Broadway is over. We have Waitressthat's still running on Broadway. It's been on a few years. Sara Bareilles wrote that of course. And that's still doing really well. We have a US tour of that, that's doing really well. And that's just starting performances in London right now. And then we have Pretty Womanwith music by Bryan Adams and that began performances this August, this past August. So that's doing pretty nicely. And we've got three new shows starting. So you mentioned American Son, that was a 16 week limited run, but that closed a couple of weeks ago and now we've got Be More Chillstarting, which we're excited about. We've got a show Ain't Too Proud, and that's basically the life of The Temptations. It's their backstory and all their music, that incredible song book. And then we have an amazing new piece called Hadestownthat's coming. And that started at the New York Theater Workshop downtown several years back. And it went on a journey of development and, you know, the amazing Rachel Chavkin is directing it. She's the one who did The Great Cometwith Josh Groban which we were part of a few years ago. And it ended up going, Hadestownended up going over to London. It was just at The National on its journey to Broadway. So that starting previews pretty soon, which they just went into rehearsals last week. So we're getting ready for that as well.

Heather Newman:  You have so much that's on Broadway right now! That's amazing!

Jim Kierstead:  It's been a lot of fun. It's been super busy. And then I've got my own shows that I'm developing. So, there's this one play that I had gone downtown with a friend a couple of years ago and we knew somebody in a cast of this one act festival. So it was three little half hour one act plays. And I wasn't holding out much hope for this little one act festival, but we figured we'd have a good time. And the first play was this play that I'm mentioning and it was only a half hour and it blew me away. I said, I need to know more about this play. I want to work on this play. So I asked my friend who I went with if she knew the writer, she did. So we went up and met him afterward and I said, if you'd like to work with me to turn this into a full length, like 90 minute play, I said, let me know. And he's like, ah, yeah, I'd love to do that. So he started meeting regularly and he started working on it and, you know, three years later we've got an amazing Broadway director who's on board, Sheryl Kaller, and we're working to cast it right now. We're going to do an industry reading at the end of March and then we're going to get it out into the world and I'm super excited about it.

Heather Newman:  Can you tell the name?

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah. It's called Sparkler.

Heather Newman:  Sparkler.

Jim Kierstead:  It's all about 1950s Hollywood and the underbelly of that, it's pretty cool and it's very sexy.

Heather Newman:  There's a lot of that for sure in Hollywood. Yeah. And having just moved to Los Angeles, I'm kind of dipping into that old Hollywood stuff and kind of learning more about that. So that's exciting.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, I'm really, really happy about that one. And then we've got another piece called Fancyand it's based on the Reba McEntire Song, “Fancy Was My Name”. So the story, it's really kind of a neat concept. These writers wrote a book for the musical based on the story of the song, from Reba McEntire's song. So that's the story. And they've adapted it to use 25 hit contemporary country music songs to tell this story. And we've been working on this for a while. So we're going to do this at a theater in the Midwest in the spring of 2020. Get this thing up on its feet and then we'll probably do another production of it in the fall of 2020 and then get this thing out on the road. And there's lots of places that I think it would play incredibly well, including like Las Vegas, some other of those types of spots.

Heather Newman:  Do you think that it's something where, because it's using contemporary songs that the, the folks who either wrote or play those songs might like dip in for a hello, like a cameo?

Jim Kierstead:  Oh, I love that you asked me that question. Yes, I do, in fact, think so.

Heather Newman:  Isn't that a good idea?

Jim Kierstead:  That's part of the plan and I love that you thought of that. Are you a producer?

Heather Newman:  Uh, maybe, a little bit, little bit.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, so we're definitely gonna do that. And they all know that the show is happening, including Reba. So we want to get her out there too, to see it because you know, it would be lovely if she'd like to be involved in some way as well, even if it's just to be a friend of the court. But yes, we're working on that now.

Heather Newman:  That's so cool.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Heather Newman:  So, what was the most, sort of like you, you had this moment where you got started with a friend and then when was sort of the next moment of like you were like, yes, I want to do this? Was it you seeking out or did somebody go, oh he just did this and maybe we should talk to him? Or like what was the next trajectory from that?

Jim Kierstead:  Well, it's funny you say that. So the first thing that got me involved with wanting to be part of theater, because it was never something that ever crossed my mind except that I was an audience member. In 1998 I went to see the original production of Side Show. And you and I met at the revival of Side Showa few years back. But when I went to see this in 1998 I walked into the theater as an audience member and I left as somebody who wanted to be part of this world. It just changed my life in such a strong way. So I got to be friends with the writers after that, just through circumstance. And I started getting a little bit more involved in the world just because they were writing new shows. So I would go to readings that they did. So I started understanding like what the process was at least on a very general level about what was involved in putting a theater piece together because you don't really know that unless you're, unless you're in the world. So that was my entree into the world a little bit. And then this whole experience with these people who are writing this musical, that was my first time really getting to be a little bit of a producer on something rather than just somebody going to see readings and whatnot. And then when that ended, it was a great experience because I got to meet a lot of exciting people in the business and we went through a whole audition process. So I understood what that was like. But right after that, I, you know, I figured it was, I figured it was done. I was going to go back to my world of information technology.

Heather Newman:  Where were you in IT?

Jim Kierstead:  I was the systems manager. No, I wasn't the systems manager. I was the information technology manager for companies. So I was there about 30 years by the time.

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Okay.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, so a long time. So, I had a whole career doing that. But right after I finished up with this show that I'm telling you about, a friend of mine came to me and he said, you know, I have a piece that you might be interested in working on. And he took it off of his shelf and instead of being like a 30 character musical the size of Les Misérables, which the other one was, this was a two character musical with one piano. So it was very manageable. So we ended up doing it in a theater festival in the city in 2003. And Martin Charnin and the guy who wrote and directed Anniewas our director. So, it was exciting because honestly I thought it was just going to be six performances and done. But the show was a huge hit at the festival, we ended up doing a cast recording of it. We ended up doing it off Broadway in 2005 and to this day, that show has been published and it's had hundreds of productions in the United States. And it's been done all over the world, translated into 15 languages. It's been in Korea for 12 years now, Japan for six and China's going into its second year.

Heather Newman:  What!? What is the exact name of it?

Jim Kierstead:  It's called Thrill Me: The Leopold & Loeb Story. So, it's the story of Leopold and Loeb in a musical. But it's a chamber musical. So it's very dark and gritty and sexy also. So it's, uh, it's been very interesting experience. Yeah. It's been a real wild ride.

Heather Newman:  That's amazing. So 12 years in

Jim Kierstead:  12 years in Korea. Yup.

Heather Newman:  Wow. And that was really the first one, sort of the second one that you had your hands in.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, that was the first thing that I did on my own. The other one was I was sort of helping out those folks. So it was very, just fortunate the way it all worked out and um, you know, it's, it's been really well received everywhere it goes. It's a really tight, interesting piece. So as a result of that, I went on the board of the York Theater Company in New York City, which is where we did Thrill Mein 2005 and I started developing other work with them and we did a show called Yankin 2010 off Broadway and that got nominated for a lot of great awards. And then, um, I was working on the show Unexpected Joy, which was with Bill Russell who wrote Side Showand that's how we got to,

Heather Newman:  Who I met, who is lovely.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, he's great. Bill's terrific. Yeah, he's a very good friend. So we started working on this four woman show called Unexpected Joythat he and his writing partner, Janet Hood, had written. So we started developing that and while I was there, I'd invested in Broadway a bunch of times at that point. But while I was there,

Heather Newman:  Invested meaning? Tell everybody what that means when you say that.

Jim Kierstead:  Sure. You know, Broadway is an interesting structure. Like you have lead producers who are responsible for the show, but then what they have to do, because Broadway musicals are very expensive, you know, they could be $15 to $20 million for an average Broadway musical nowadays. And it's impossible for one person to bring in that money. And even if they could, they would want to spread that risk around. So, what they do as they bring on co-producing partners and you get billing and you get, you know, some extra, you know, financial consideration for all your work you're doing. But what you do is you take on a chunk of the fundraising. So then you, those people go out to their investors and they'll write a check to invest in this corporation. So it's like it, it's an LLC.

Heather Newman:  Give me a checky checky check.

Jim Kierstead:  That's right.

Heather Newman:  I love the producers a little bit. Yes and no.

Jim Kierstead:  Exactly. Yes, yes, yes. It's completely true. It all happens.

Heather Newman:  Hey, you know what? Investing, whether it's investing in a company or investing, you know, it's the same thing. I just, I wanted you to explain that because I don't think everybody understands sometimes that that's similar in, in theater and in, especially in something like Broadway where you do have such large amounts of money to actually get something off the ground.

Jim Kierstead:  Absolutely. Just to give you like some more information about that. You know, like most investors, um, for shows like if it's a musical, a lot of times the minimum investment to be to write, and you know, you're filling out an SEC investment paper where it's an operating agreement and subscription documents and it's a liquid investment, but it's sanctioned by the SEC. And the minimum dollar amount that you could invest usually for a Broadway musical is either $25 or $50,000. And for a play, usually it's around $25,000 and that's considered a unit in the show. And you can take multiples of those units and whatnot. And that entitles an investor to, um, you know, obviously you hope you get your money back and then you start getting profits and it gives you first right of refusal for subsequent productions. And you also get opening night tickets so you get to go and go to the red carpet. So it's, it's a lot of fun. But as a co-producer, it's up to you to raise a substantial chunk of money. So, you go to your investors who may do a unit or a couple of units and then you're responsible for your entire raise and then that's your structure.

Heather Newman:  Gotcha. Thank you for that.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, no, no, absolutely. So when I, so I had been investing as an investor, like somebody doing a unit or two units over the years in various shows. Um, but while I was there working on Unexpected Joyat the York, one of our, our director, in fact, she had gone to the reading of Kinky Bootsto the workshop of Kinky Bootsand I had been aware that was coming and I knew Cindy Lauper wrote the music and I said, I want to be a co-producer on this show and I set out to do that. And I ended up doing it and it took me a long time to raise that money cause I didn't really have people to go to and I figured it out. So we had a really fun year that year.

Heather Newman:  That's cool. When did, what year did that open?

Jim Kierstead:  It started in Chicago and out of town in a 2012 and it opened on Broadway in April of 2013.

Heather Newman:  That's right. And tell everybody what out of town means.

Jim Kierstead:  Sure. You know, you work on this show and it's, it's big, right? You’re working on a big musical and there are too many moving parts in it, when you're developing something brand new, to just come to Broadway. It's too much. It's too expensive and it's too risky. So what people do is, so they have a diff, another chance to work on it. They'll do it out of town somewhere like a theater in Chicago or at a not for profit theater or in various cities. There are theaters

Heather Newman:  Yeah, Seattle, living there a long time, the rep would do, certain, Seattle Rep would do something, a play and bring it and then bring it to Broadway.

Jim Kierstead:  Completely. So it gives the creatives a chance to get it up on its feet, to go through a full rehearsal process to make changes to it, to get out of town reviews. So you can look at those and see like maybe the critics notice something that we want to look at and address and then a number of months go by before Broadway and then it allows them to do work and then do it all over again for Broadway. Hopefully the show is even in much better shape than it was when it went out of town. So it's a way of really going and having two opportunities to make that first impression before you open on Broadway.

Heather Newman:  Less of a workshop. Right?

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah,

Heather Newman:  Cause I think sometimes people are like that, doing something out of town and then versus doing like a workshop of something.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, a workshop is usually done for the most part, I mean you could do it different ways, but usually it's done in New York City in a big rehearsal studio and it's not with fully fleshed out costumes necessarily or fully fleshed out sets. They may just build something temporarily and it's more about let's get the choreography down, let's work on the story, let's work on some new songs. It's like their specific work points that they want to do. But when you're doing it out of town in this, this tryout, that's a full production, you're up there and people are paying and they're arriving and they want the show to be in tip top shape.

Heather Newman:  Right? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for making that distinction because I think some people are like, well, what's the difference between this and that and the other thing, you know, and it's, if you're not in the world sometimes, um, you don't know the terminology.

Jim Kierstead:  You're so right. Absolutely.

Heather Newman:  So, what's the, like big, biggest might not be the right word, but I guess I'm going to say biggest, show or like the sort of, I don’t know, cast, money or just grand. Like what's the, what's the biggest one maybe worked on or you produced?

Jim Kierstead:  The big, the biggest show that I've been a part of, was The Great Comet. There's no doubt because what that show was, I don't know if people are aware of that show, but that was the show. You know, a bunch of years ago, there's a little theater, a little not for profit theater in New York called Ars Nova. And they developed this show. They commissioned it, in fact. The writer's name is Dave Malloy. And they brought him in and they said, we'd like to write a show based on this number of pages from War and Peace. And he wrote a musical and he wrote the book and it was this immersive show in a very small theater called Ars Nova. And it got a lot of attention. And one of the board members saw it and said, you know, I, he was a Broadway producer and he said, I'd like to move this. So he moved it to a tent, he actually created a tent, set up a tent, and it was an elaborate tent, with the most incredible bathrooms. Actually. It was crazy. It was amazing. Yeah, it was just, it was noteworthy that the bathrooms were incredible at this tent. And, they served food, they actually served a dinner and the people were dancing all over and it was this really elaborate piece and it did very well down there. And then the next iteration of the project was he decided that he wanted to bring it to Broadway. And before he did, he went up to ART, up in Cambridge. And they did it for a proscenium stage for a more, for a traditional theater instead of a tent or a little tiny immersive show. And they built out some of the stage and they put the audience on the stage and then they tried it out up there and reworked it and how they would set that up and after they were successful, he said like, okay, let's go to Broadway. So they took the Imperial Theatre. They were given the Imperial Theater, which was a nice sized theater for a big Broadway. Nice sized Broadway house and they gutted the place. I mean, they completely gutted it. They set it up so there were ramps going through the theater. There were staircases going up to the mezzanine and people were sitting on the stage. There was, you know, they were serving pierogis that was kind of fun and dumb. It was just this crazy event and it cost a fortune to do it. But they got Josh Groban to star as the title character Pierre, and that came to Broadway. So I was part of that. And when I walked into that theater I was like, I've never seen anything like this before. It was really beautiful, it was a beautiful production. I think everybody involved was, you know, very proud of the artistry of it all. It was a great group of people, you know, who were putting that show together as far as the creative team is concerned.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And I, that's, and so you know, listeners that aren't as theater-y, the proscenium stage is typically just what you think of, I think when you think of a theater. It's just you're looking into sort of a theater with a box and a stage around it.

Jim Kierstead:  Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly right. The proscenium, is that that arch that's above most theaters that people would recognize.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And so this production, as Jim was saying, like kind of broke, I wouldn't say broke rules, but maybe kind of broke rules of where you sit as an audience member and where things happen and so like that sort of more experiential theater piece if you will. Right?

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah. You know what I think is so interesting, and this was one of the reasons why that year in particular and ongoing, certainly, but I've really gotten excited about immersive theater and I think people like it because we live in a world now where everything, we don't want to just watch something. We want to be in something, we want to be a part of the action, you know, whether that's video games or whether that's social media. So people feel the same way. They don't want to just watch something happening on a stage, they want to be a part of it. And that's why these immersive shows have started becoming so popular. So this is an experiential show where the actors were all around you. You could sit on the stage. Um, you know, Josh Groban was right in front of you, like three feet away. So it was, it was exciting to see and it was just a neat proof of concept because I think there's going to be a big place in the world for this, you know, even more so in future years.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Was that one of the first that did that, cause I know there's been a few here, especially in New York, you get such great, some of the crazy architecture here or old buildings or you know old hotels where some of that stuff. Was that one of the first, cause there's been a few others?

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, there are others. There's, you know, the Sleep No Morethat's downtown right now. And that's in an old hotel and it's this big multi floored hotel and people wander around and they do this story in there with the masks. This is an unusual situation because it's not often that you do an immersive piece in a traditional Broadway theater. I mean, I have a hard time thinking of one. You know, they did Once On This Islandat Circle in the Square. I wouldn't exactly call it immersive, but I would call it realistic because they, you know, they made it into a, into a space that felt like there had been a hurricane wreckage there. So it was that, but it was still, you weren't really interacting with it like in this show. So for them to redo a Broadway theater like this was, was a big deal. It's very expensive.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's so cool. So, that fits the bill of biggest I would think or just, you know, most expensive.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, it was really, it was very, it was very, you know, like brave of them to do that. Yeah. That wasn't something for the faint of heart.

Heather Newman:  Right. Yeah. That's super cool. So I mean, you bring so much to Broadway and any way just all the time and have for so long. Is there other things that are out there besides your fabulous shows that you're excited about seeing or that you've seen that really blew you away?

Jim Kierstead:  Um, yeah. You know what I just saw, I just saw To Kill A Mockingbirdand I think it was, it was a really beautiful interpretation of that book, that very beloved book. And the cast was fantastic. It was, it's a very special story. So to be able to see it on stage at the Shubert, you know, they don't usually put plays on the stage at the Schubert. It's more of a musical house cause if its size but, but it deserves to be there. It's a great show. And you know, there's, there's a lot of new great things coming out this season as well, so it'll be, it'll be fun.

Heather Newman:  And talk to everybody about the season, like what that means, like the season. So like where it starts and where it ends. Just so folks know.

Jim Kierstead:  Sure. The, you know, the Broadway season, tends to go, the fall is first and then we go through the winter and then we have the spring season where things start to open. So the season is really, you know, kind of marked by the Tony Awards, which are in June. So the Tony Awards once the Tonys happen, right. So the cutoff for the season is in April because then you've got the voting and all of the, you know, the promotion of the shows for the awards and whatnot. So the cutoff is an April. So anything that opens after April is not eligible for that season, would be for the following season.

Heather Newman:  For the Tonys.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah. And then the Tonys are in June. Yeah. So the summer tends to be quiet or a lot of people are away. They don't really start too many new things in the summer. Although this past year we did Pretty Womanstarting in July and opening in August. But, um, that's a little bit unusual of a situation. So starting in September, then you get a big new batch of shows, right. Because things tend to close around the end of the summer or around like right after the Tonys. So you've got these theaters that have space available and then they bring in a whole bunch of new shows for the fall. And then after Christmas, which is a very busy time. Thanksgiving, Christmas time is very busy for theater cause you've got a lot of tourists in town. You have anything that's kind of struggling, they'll announce closing like right after the first of the year and then they'll start ramping up to bring new shows in for the spring into those theaters because now they've got some real estate available. So that's kind of the way the season works. Um, you know, so we always celebrate the season at the Tony time. It kind of the marks the end.

Heather Newman:  Yes, absolutely. The big hurrah. Do you find, I guess with, since you've been in the business so long and seen Broadway change so much, I don't know are there things that have really changed that you can put your finger on that you're like, Gosh, over the years trends or I don't know, like, yeah.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, there has, there have been a few things. I think the most notable trend is theater like our culture had to catch up because the audience for theater had always traditionally been a little bit older and certainly to pay Broadway prices a little bit more affluent. And what ended up happening was the audiences were getting older and young audiences were looking at theater and saying, I don't want to go see this. I don't want to go see a revival of, you know, some old show or something that feels like a clunky musical theater piece because tastes were changing. So what they ended up doing is, you know, we had a real problem in the late eighties, early nineties where theater was concerned. We had a lot of dark theaters. Now you can't get a theater. They've got like waiting lists of a hundred people, but back then they couldn't give the theaters away. There was nothing to put in them. So what ended up happening was they had to realize we have to start inventing content differently. So the first way they do that right is any time you're on a progression like that, you have to make some mistakes along the way and figure out where you're going to go wrong to get to where you need to be. So what they started doing is they did all these jukebox musicals, so everybody was doing a jukebox musical because they realize, oh, this is young and it's fresh, and people know the music already so you're not risking doing a brand new piece that nobody knows. So people at least would go and say

Heather Newman:  Like the Jersey Boyskind of thing, is that what you mean?

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, and Jersey Boyswas one of the really successful ones, right, as Mama Miawas. But there were a bunch of them. There were a whole string of jukebox musicals that were not all that successful and they just kind of did them. And they were, they were kind of cheesy stories they would throw in with the song book that you would know every song. But the story was kind of like ridiculous. So those were in favor for a while and they started to bring new audiences and, but they sort of fell out of favor very quickly. That flavor of the month sort of disappeared. Um, but what really happened after that is they said, you know, we need to be more contemporary. We need to be more pop oriented. So they started doing things that appealed to younger, cooler audiences, like Wickedfor example, like Book of Mormon, um, you know, so all these shows came out.

Heather Newman:  Like Spring Awakening.

Jim Kierstead:  Absolutely. All these,

Heather Newman:  American Idiot, like some of that stuff.

Jim Kierstead:  Absolutely. All these, all these shows, they started realizing like, hey, let's bring in younger audiences. We'll go more pop. And then they were sort of filling their theaters up again so they realize this is good. But what I'm so excited about and one of the reasons why, so this has been progressing, right? Because now you can't get a theater no matter what. It's really hard. So what I'm really excited about is the show Be More Chill. And the reason that I wanted to be a part of it is this even skews the audience younger, right? Cause like a Dear Evan Hansen, the young people really love that. And so do adults, people of all ages are flocking to that show. But this Be More Chillshow is really interesting because it's speaking to people, you know, kids in the 12 to 15, 16-year-old range. And when these kids want to go see it and they're so passionate about it, they bring their families along. You know, at least that's the hope. And so far it's been proving to be true. So, and what I love about that is when you bring in young audiences like that, it's a great way to introduce them to the theater experience and have it be something that they want to do. And after they see this show and they've had a great time, they might be more inclined to say, Hey, what can I see next? And that might be Dear Evan Hansenor Wickedor Hamiltonor one of these other great,

Heather Newman:  And the Lion KingI think has always been a big,

Jim Kierstead:  The Lion Kingis just such a, such a hit. It's such a hit. Yeah. And that's a really big hit because you can see that show and not speak a word of English and still have an amazing time. It's so visual and wonderful.

Heather Newman:  It's global. Global language for sure. Yeah. That's amazing. Oh, okay I totally want to ask you, what do you, the Hamiltonphenomenon, what do you think about that? Like just it's everybody knows all the words of the songs. Every child I know, like I can rap that, you know, you're just like, wow. Like In the Heights, you know, Into the Heights, am I saying that right?

Jim Kierstead:  In the Heights.

Heather Newman:  Like that was, I saw it, I got to see that on Broadway and then just his progression too just so interesting and just blew up.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah. Yeah. He's a genius. Like, I think it's funny when I went to see Hamilton, there was so much hype surrounding it and I'd seen at the Public before it came to Broadway. And I watched it and I was like, and it was before anybody. I mean, people, it was starting to catch on, but it was still within the New York theater community that it was popular. The world didn't know about it yet. And I'm remember going down and I was like, what is this show, it's so different? And I admired it on so many levels, but I was still trying to figure out what this show is. It was so fascinating. And then the next time I saw it, I got it and I was like, oh, this is amazing. This is a genius show. It's so special. So it was really worth the hype, which surprised me because I was almost thinking, oh, I'm going to be disappointed. You know, how can something ever live up to this? But it's pretty terrific. You know, and I think it just really captured the hearts of people because here we have this famous figure in the history of the United States and, you know, it's, it's told in such a fresh cool way. But it's, you know, it's about a person. I think that's the kind of shows that do the best, right? When you're talking about people, when you're talking about emotion. It doesn't matter what that story is, right? It's about like, how can you connect with those characters.

Heather Newman:  I think I just, when I think about you, I think about how for so long you've been able to bring empathy to a lot of people. And I think that's so cool.

Jim Kierstead:  Oh, thank you.

Heather Newman:  I mean, that's what theater is about right?

Jim Kierstead:  I love it. Makes me so happy. Well, what I do, what I like to do with theater is the, especially, you know, anything I get to be a part of, but if it's something I'm developing, you know, I want it to be something that has a positive message. I don't get involved, I always tell people, I don't really get involved with political debates. I don't want to argue politics. I don't want to talk about, you know, anything in a way other than, cause I'm not going to convince anybody. Right? And they're not going to convince me. We all have our opinions. But what I like to do is I like to put my efforts and resources behind positive pieces and put them out in the world and let people get the message that way and be entertained while getting it. And at least if they don't agree, at least they can hear something from a different point of view and maybe it'll stick with them, and maybe it will convince them to think of things, you know, outside the box.

Heather Newman:  It's like if it educates and entertains at the same time. Right. It's like magic.

Jim Kierstead:  I think so too. I think so too. It's very powerful. It's a really powerful medium. To be able to give somebody something like that to take away.

Heather Newman:  That's cool. All right, my last question. What was the first piece of theater you ever saw?

Jim Kierstead:  The very first piece of theater that I ever saw. Well, I know the first Broadway show I saw for sure. And it was Annie. I saw Annieon Broadway and it was so fun because I got to work with Martin Charnin for my first show when I did Thrill Meall those years later. So I remember that was my first Broadway show. I loved it. It was like I was probably in, I don't know, second grade or third grade and everybody was seeing that show. It was such a phenomenon.

Heather Newman:  Are you from here?

Jim Kierstead:  I'm from New Jersey. I grew up in northern New Jersey, so we, everybody would go to the city to see Broadway shows. Not all the time, but we did it relatively frequently. So I loved that. And as a kid, I probably, you know what, it wasn't a play that I saw when I was a kid that made the biggest impression on me. But when I was a little kid, I saw the movie Mary Poppinsand it was, it was back in the theaters on one of its many times back in the theaters. And I remember I couldn't get enough of that show. I got taken every week to see that show. It made me, it really made an impression on me. I'm sure it had a big impact with my love of musical theater.

Heather Newman:  That's cool. Yeah, I think I saw A Chorus Linewith my father, we would Drury Lane in Chicago and that was my first musical and didn't quite understand. I think I was maybe in middle school or something, but all I knew is I was like, those people are amazing. The dancing, the singing that everything. And I was enthralled and one of the reasons I became a theater major.

Jim Kierstead:  So great.

Heather Newman:  Now tech person. But yeah,

Jim Kierstead:  We have a lot of crossover with that.

Heather Newman:  You know, it's funny, our community, our wonderful Microsoft community has so many art people who are tech people. You know, Dan and, Dan Holme who introduced us, shout out sweet Dan.

Jim Kierstead:  Hey Dan.

Heather Newman:  Hey Dan. Um, you know, he was a theater major as well, Lucinda, who's another friend, she was a music major. Like there's tons of interesting crossover between art and technology. And I, if people sometimes are like, how is it that you're theater major? And I'm like, I use it every day.

Jim Kierstead:  Oh, I completely agree with you.

Heather Newman:  I tell stories. It's about empathy. It's about understanding. It's, you know, in sales it's about how to sell something to people and understanding human emotion and all that. We were talking about that a little bit before and, um, just basic psychology, you know? And so I think it's really interesting that you find that those things crossover a lot.

Jim Kierstead:  I think so too. You know, there's been a lot of interesting studies and articles over the years about how an acting degree can be so incredibly valuable in all facets of life. You know, even if somebody never goes on a stage, just that course of education they get is so helpful in business and just dealing with other human beings. You know, how to present yourself properly and, and whatnot. So it's valuable. And that's what disturbs me so much about any undervaluing of the arts in this country. It's so short sighted and terrible because people all have this need to be creative and if they're not allowed to be creative, I think they just are miserable. I don't know how I would live my life if I wasn't able to be creative in some way. You could see how people would suffer from that.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. It's hard to see arts programs suffer in our education system.

Jim Kierstead:  It helps in every facet of life, you know, and people, people who think that you don't need art because you're going to go into a business are sadly mistaken.

Heather Newman:  Yup. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think and presentation skills, I mean public speaking is still one of the, like it's up there with, you know, spiders and I think I said this the other day, I was talking to someone, spiders and sharks and it is a fear that people have about getting in front of people. And so it's like theater and Improv and all of those things are so helpful for that. And that's again, like you just said, any aspect of business, you're going to have to do that.

Jim Kierstead:  Completely. Completely. And we live in a world now, you know, sadly we're, you know, it's a double edged sword, right? We have technology that's available to us and it starts to, technology can be amazing, but it can also distance us from human relationships. And if you look at the kids now, right, they're very busy on their devices and sometimes they forget how to talk to adults or talk to each other and they'll just text all day long. And I think that theater is going to be even more important because as human beings, you know, we're animals who have a need for interaction and communication and communing, doing something together rather than being isolated in their bedroom on a video game. And by being in that theater, you're with a group of people, you're watching people, you feel connected with people and that's something you can't get in any other form of entertainment.

Heather Newman:  And collective moments of awe, right? The moment when there's a moment, a friend of mine, Shannon was working with us and there was a little night music and she flew in a drop that she had painted, the production did, and everybody in the audience at the same time went (inhale sound). And to this day, it's one of my favorite things, that she did that with paint on a beautiful piece of Muslin or whatever you know, and that's, that's the stuff.

Jim Kierstead:  It's incredible.

Heather Newman:  Yeah.

Jim Kierstead:  Yeah, it's true. Yeah. It's so fun because in theater, right, you can like, you don't have to be literal. Like in a film you have to be literal. You have to create the environment exactly as it should look. But theater you can be so creative and abstract. It's really neat.

Heather Newman:  I just want to say thank you for doing what you do. I mean it's, I think it's so important and what a neat job.

Jim Kierstead:  Aw, thank you so much. It's so funny. There have been times in my life with theater where I'd get done with a project and I'd say, okay, I'm, I think I'm done for a while. And then literally the next day I was like, I can't stay away. I have to do this, I have to do this again. Like, where's the next project? So I've kind of given up on doing anything else at this point. So thank you.

Heather Newman:  Thank you for being on the show and sharing this with our listeners and, giving them a glimpse into what it is to be a producer here in New York City on Broadway. So cool.

Jim Kierstead:  Thanks Heather. Thanks everybody.

Jim Kierstead:  Absolutely. Well, everyone this was another episode of Mavens Do It Better. And, you can find us on iTunes, on Spotify, on Stitcher, on the Mavensdoitbetter.com website on all of our social and fun stuff. So check us out there and here's to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Cheers.