Introduction
Welcome to the Mavens do it Better podcast. And now your host, Heather Newman.
Heather Newman
Hello everyone. Here we are again for another Mavens do it Better podcast, where we interview extraordinary experts who bring a light to our world. And we have a light right in front of us. He is a travel Maven, a tech Maven, digital Maven, so many Mavens! SharePoint Maven, I would say as well. My dear friend and colleague, Joel Oleson. Hello!
Joel Oleson
It's so great to be here, Heather. Thanks so much for reaching out.
Heather Newman
You're so welcome. Absolutely. Joel and I have known each other for a really long time. We've both been kicking around in the SharePoint community since the beginning.
Joel Oleson
Since the beginning.
Heather Newman
Yes, for about Gosh, 18-19 years. I think you were in it before I was, because you were doing stuff way back. So
Joel Oleson
Yeah, in fact I can tell you this real briefly. I was hired after the dotcom bust. I was working at a company, and it was it was called eXo Communications. Oh great. Yeah, yeah. And they were laying off the contractors. And so, I was like, ooh, what's going to happen here? And so, I put my feelers out. And one of the companies who called me back was Microsoft. And I had actually been in Redmond. And at the time, I was actually in Texas.
Heather Newman
Okay,
Joel Oleson
So, this idea of going back to the mothership, going back to Redmond, was kind of an exciting opportunity.
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
And this call was from IT. And to make a long story short, they recruited me, and I went up to Redmond saying, hey, it's a free trip - even if t's not right, let's go check it out.
Heather Newman
Yes.
Joel Oleson
And to make a long story short, I accepted the offer and that offer was... through the course of that interview, it even started off being an Exchange conference server role, if anybody even remembers that product. Some historical context. I think that was way before Skype. Anyway, that that team was like, well, we need we need the "collab person." This messaging and collaboration team didn't have any collab people. So, I was kind of this first collab hire. InMax is what they called it. It was like this group within IT at Microsoft. And what was happening actually was the team that would be later called SharePoint, was called Office Web Server and Tahoe. These were two different teams. They really didn't even think that they were related to each other. They're both doing document management essentially, in different ways. One, the office team one, this kind of portal team. And they needed IT to host what they were working on. I was this IT hire to go take that beta code (wasn't even beta, it was alpha code) that they were running underneath their desks. You know, Jeff Teper always talks about the server under his desk? I absolutely was that guy who helped bring that into the Redmond data center to help get that going.
Heather Newman
Yeah, that's amazing.
Joel Oleson
Back in December of 2000.
Heather Newman
Wow.
Joel Oleson
Seriously, it's gonna be 20 years this year. Yeah, right. I know. 20 years - it's the way back. And I know you worked with my business partner Simeon Cathey way back. He was one of `the first guys I met actually. That's so funny, absolutely. And then just a point of fact, when I got hired, I was 2001, and my first job was doing the first 125 case studies for SharePoint portal server and SharePoint team services back in the day, and I think you will remember, I tell this story a lot, but I did go and try to delete one, but I deleted all of them. You're not the only one.
Heather Newman
I know, right? But where was the undelete button like seriously?
Joel Oleson
You know, one of the things I first learned was how to attach databases because Sam Crewdson, who some people may know, deleted the portal and I had to work on restoring it.
Heather Newman
That's worse than what I did!
Joel Oleson
How to restore MSW!
Heather Newman
Wow. I know, it was Lonny Lippold, Bill, there was another fella, and then Simeon were in the lab and that was funny. From that I think that getting the moniker of SharePoint Joel, as well, was part of it.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, so that SharePoint Joel thing really was, you know, talk about personal brand. This was a time where this idea of blogging was out there, and I actually created this thing on MSN Spaces way back in the day. 2004-2005 I think it was, and I started writing as if what I was working on meant something to somebody.
Heather Newman
Sure.
Joel Oleson
When I first started, I didn't know whether it was going to mean anything to anybody. And it was kind of just almost a journal or a log. And it actually started with people would email me and say, hey, you're running the IT environment? This customer has this question or tell us about that. And I was sending so many emails back in those days. I'm like, you know, what, if I actually write it once, well,
Heather Newman
Hey,
Joel Oleson
And post it to my blog and then just send them a link, I'll have a reader.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
So just... read my blog and maybe what people are asking, other people have the same questions.
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
And it did, it kind of snowballed into my way of thinking about what I blog had a lot to do with what are the questions people are asking me? And being able to kind of anticipate answers. And it really worked too - like, I started getting people on the street, you know, at conferences and stuff, who would say, "I've already checked your blog," because one of my things was, if you ask me a question, you need to make sure you've searched my blog and you haven't found the answer. So that idea of sharing best practices and kind of connecting with the community was something I was really big in at the beginning for sure. Yeah. And definitely laid the groundwork for so many other folks to do the same. Absolutely. I don't want to say I was first or whatever. But I absolutely feel like this is something where, as people show patterns and we adopt those patterns, we all grow as a result.
Heather Newman
Absolutely. And you know, other people have different perspectives than you or have special teams that are different than you, right? And they're like, wait a minute, he's doing it that way. Maybe I should do that way. And then we just build this community that's giant and amazing.
Joel Oleson
Some of my favorite blog posts (or moments in blogging) was taking a controversial position, getting it out there, then getting the reverberation from the community as to whether people like it or don't like it. And I actually think that boldness of saying, Hey, guys, I don't think we should use custom site definitions. We should stop using custom site definitions. I think it actually started changing the behavior of the way that development even happened on the platform. Yeah, it was that conversation in the community where it was like, Hey, you know what, maybe he's right. But there were others who took the opposite position said, Hey, this is a dev platform, and we're going to do it the way we want to and as an IT guy was like, This is the biggest headache upgrading these sites where people have done so much wacky crazy stuff.
Heather Newman
Right?
Joel Oleson
And here we are, you know, many, many years later, and we're saying, Hey, you know, what, don't change the underlying stuff, just work on top of it. And things like that have just continued to carry on. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it sort of was the beginning of the whole MVP community. And for those of you listening who are not in the tech world, I talk a lot of tech and with tech friends. But the MVP community, you're nominated, you're chosen. and then you are a community member that helps with a lot of community events, but you're also a technical leader. And that is about also giving feedback to Microsoft. And so, like Joel's, you know, yeah, so and you're an RD as well as an MVP, right? That's right.
Heather Newman
Regional Director.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, Microsoft Regional Director.
Heather Newman
So that's something that has been going on for a long time. And then I can't remember exactly when it happened - a few years ago, but the whole concept of the User Voice came out. And that's where we really truly opened up. The Microsoft engineering teams opened up, you can basically put into Bing, any Microsoft product, and then User Voice. And you can get to a place where you can look for and see features or things that you want. Or you can log them and once you get, I think, five votes it is? Then it becomes an actual listing. And you can vote things up. And so now it's not only MVPs, but it's everybody and anybody.
Joel Oleson
And in fact, I think there's probably a couple of things to kind of seize on there is like, every voice matters is a big one. Where the product team is always asking for feedback.
Heather Newman
Yep.
Joel Oleson
And while it may feel like the MVPs' voices are amplified, it's not the case, you know? Well, it is, and it isn't. It's like, when you're an MVP, it seems like you kind of have this little platform that Microsoft's built for you where there's a channel to be able to get feedback back to Microsoft.
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
But at the same time, that tech community is made up of all shapes and sizes and colors. And, you know, the more diversity in our community, the better at being able to actually have a solid message that, ` Yep, we do need to do this. Everybody's saying it.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. And it's great that Microsoft is one of the few companies that's open like that. And that's changed over the years, too, right? I think that's definitely with Satya Nadella as a CEO, it's even more of that kind of Give us the feedback and open platforms.
Joel Oleson
Let me tell you one thing that I think may even lead to further discussions, which is we, as a community recognized we were community. And we started doing I think it was three little parties you were organizing, actually. But it was like, Hey, we're seeing the same people. We're seeing their friends now at multiple events, whether it was you know, tech eds back in the day, or the SharePoint airlifts and the SharePoint conferences. But we would see friends and we would all go out after, and it would be the after party and the after-after party. And we would go until it's like, you know what? This city is all the way shut down and we're finding tater tots somewhere. Where's breakfast?
Heather Newman
Clover Grill.
Joel Oleson
And those connections we made... I loved being able to say Hey, pay people, where are you going next? Let's go plan something so that when we meet up at that conference, let's go do something after. Let's not just hang out at the bar. You know, SharePints are great, which really was a great forming community thing, but our ability to say, hey we're going to London. But when we go to London, we're actually going to go visit some communities in Croatia.
Heather Newman
Yeah. Then when the ash cloud happened, here's a group of us that are all kind of struggling together, trying to figure our thing out. And we're traveling and seeing just things that blow our mind, you know? Here's a group of people that technology is changing their world. And so, when we go and speak at these conferences, we're changing lives. We're influencing people. We're inspiring people to help raise up their own communities. And then we're essentially reaching our arms down and bringing them up at this global level where they're amongst the leaders of this this great community. And I see it over and over and over again. Yeah, I know. I was talking to Michelle Gilbert earlier today and talking about user groups and how important those are, and those are once a month and many communities have those, and how it's so great to get new members. And also, your first speaking engagement, you know? Not everybody was a theater major, you know what I mean? Or feels comfortable. And so, being able to invite people and say, we want to hear Your voice, you know? Your voice is important, and please get up and speak. And yeah, I think it's awesome. And when was your first speaking engagement? Do you remember? Do you remember the first time you got up and did a presentation?
Joel Oleson
I remember one in particular when I'm sitting in my office in IT, way back in the day. And my manager's manager comes in the office, in the room, and he says to me, Hey, Joel, do you have a passport? And I was like, No, but I can get one. And he's like, there’s a bunch of IT folks in Europe who really need to learn SharePoint and you're the only one that I know who knows it. ... and we want to put you on a plane to go train those guys. So, I worked on this deck and started kind of putting together my knowledge and laying it out. And for a week I was in Paris, for a one-hour session. And I realized, what have I been doing my whole life? This is the best part of my career. How do I do more of this?
Heather Newman
Right! Yeah.
Joel Oleson
That was kind of where both the travel started in a big way. But also, where this idea of What? I can do this and get paid? I'm out of the office and being able to see the world and amazing people I'm connecting with. Now I've got faces and connections all over Europe. It was just like a game changer and opened my world.
Heather Newman
You know, another wonderful Joel in my life, Joel Trondheim.
Joel Oleson
Yeah.
Heather Newman
You know Joel.
Joel Oleson
I do know Joel.
Heather Newman
I worked for him and he did the same thing. He was like, uh you know, I think you should go on this this trip, and I was like, Okay, what is it? He's like, it’s tech ed Barcelona, and I was like, Okay. And he's like, you’re gonna plan the whole thing, you're going, just take care of it. I'm not even gonna go. I was like, Wow, okay. My first trip as well for Microsoft was going to, and I flew into Paris, funnily enough.
Joel Oleson
Wow.
Heather Newman
And then ended up driving all the way through Paris and Spain to get to Barcelona and back. And I was like, cuz he was like, I would do that. I would just fly to Paris and then drive and du dah. So, I was like, Okay. And I was bitten, you know? Just like with you - just like, this is possible?
Joel Oleson
Well, you know. And what's funny is I wonder if it was the same time. There was this Barcelona IT forum thing, and I got chosen to speak.
Heather Newman
Wow.
Joel Oleson
And I was like, Hey, let me let me tweak my formula a little bit. Let me invite the family to come with me. And at the end of the conference I'm going to rent a car and we're gonna Drive to Rome.
Heather Newman
Ah, Amazing!
Joel Oleson
And this is before GPS. This is like, Maps.
Heather Newman
Yeah yeah yeah. Mine was 2003 for sure.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, 2003. We were probably both there.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely because at that point I was running all of the shows for Office and SharePoint, kind of all over the world, so for sure.
Joel Oleson
Small world.
Heather Newman
I know it's so fun - we've come up together Mister.
Joel Oleson
We absolutely have.
Heather Newman
So, I know that we can talk tech all day long, but I know speaking of travel, you have a travel blog and pictures and everything, and a lot of it has stemmed from what we just talked about - travelingepic.com.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, that's right. Travelingepic.com.
Heather Newman
Yep. And I want to know two things. I want to talk about the blog and all of that, but I also want to know like, what is the first travel trip you remember, like from when you were a kid as well? Did you do any of that?
Joel Oleson
Oh, absolutely. So, when I was a kid, my parents planned... my mom got this.... She was working on a handwriting analysis thing. And her graduation was in Chicago, and I grew up in Idaho.
Heather Newman
Okay. Yep.
Joel Oleson
And they decided they were going to drive to Chicago.
Heather Newman
Oh wow. That's a big trip.
Joel Oleson
They had friends in St. Louis. And so, they basically drove - we drove as a family all the way to St. Louis. And the kids stayed there with you know, we stayed with our family friends, like an Idaho family who'd moved to St. Louis. And we hung out with them as my parents drove the rest of the way Chicago and kind of had their little thing in Chicago.
Heather Newman
Yeah, that's awesome. How old were you?
Joel Oleson
I was probably 12. Twelve to 14, somewhere in there? We also did a Columbia River one once, which was like my first trip to Washington. We went across the bridge in Astoria. And I was like, Hey, I've been to Washington!
Heather Newman
Yeah right? It's like dip a toe in, right?
Joel Oleson
Yeah.
Heather Newman
I did a Denver trip from Illinois, all the way back with my family when I was around the same age as you, with my grandma and Aunt Mary, and we stopped at every rest area on the way.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, it was one of those trips we did 7-11 Slurpees like, every day. The one thing to get to look forward to. My grandpa had a camper shell on the back of a truck and
Heather Newman
Oh, cool.
Joel Oleson
I don't know how legal it was. But back in the day things were really blurry and so a lot of us were back in the camper and other people were up in the front.
Heather Newman
Right. That's so awesome. So, from Idaho to St. Louis. And then now, how close are you to visiting every country in the world? Because I think you have - you're close, aren't you?
Joel Oleson
Yeah, I'm closing in. So, I have two outside of Africa. Next month I finish four more in Africa, where I'll only have 20 left in Africa. Now, Africa is so huge. There's over 50 countries. And so, this idea of having 20 - it'll be 20 countries total left, starting next month.
Heather Newman
Wow.
Joel Oleson
And essentially, I've been doing - my goal has been to do about 10 a month. So, 10 a year, sorry. So basically, essentially, I do kind of have it planned out, my next five trips, where I'll finish the world next year.
Heather Newman
That is amazing. How many countries are in the world?
Joel Oleson
193 UN countries. And you could say that, you know, when you start adding voting members and all that there's somewhere around 197.
Heather Newman
Yeah. Okay. That's right. Wow. That's unbelievable. And when did you kind of start that whole thing? I mean, I know you started doing it like you were talking about. You were going places and doing SharePoint and creating events and I remember Antarctica and you know, tell everybody about that a little bit.
Joel Oleson
So that Paris trip, which was my first overseas flight, you know. I had done kind of hop across the border to Tijuana or hop across the border to Vancouver. But this was, you know, I'm in Europe. I'm in another country. There's another huge, huge world. And that actually opened up my world where I was like, my whole life, I'd wanted to go see the world, you know, go see things and explore. And this made it so accessible like that one little trip, which ultimately ended up in like, one day in the city of Paris, and realizing, you know what? I can do this.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
I now saw the economics of it. Like I could see how much I spent on my flight. I could see how much I spent on my hotels or whatever. And here I was. I decided right then in there, every year I have a goal to go to a new country, one new country every year.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
And pretty short. It was, I want to finish. I want to finish the world by the time I'm dead. But then it was, you know, hey, I've got 100 under my belt. I bet I could actually finish it before I retire.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
And then it was Maybe I could finish before I'm 50. And now I'm like, you know what? Maybe next year, I'll be done.
Heather Newman
Wow, that's awesome. And one of the things you do on traveling epic is that you're journaling, you're talking about it, you're taking pictures, you're giving sort of recommendations and sort of how you feel about being in places and stuff. How did how did the blog site...
Joel Oleson
The blog itself is when I travel, I see things and I want to capture them. And you know, when I first started traveling, I traveled with a friend who had a Big SLR, and we would take turns using his camera. But ultimately, I was using my phone to just capture life, you know? Capturing cultures and people and things, so I wanted to kind of tell that side of the story and kind of just share some of those experiences. And so, a lot of it was Let me take the best four or five pictures from that trip and tell a little bit of the story. So, it ends up being just kind of little clips of you know, I just want to share and inspire.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely.
Joel Oleson
Some people feel like, oh, social media is about bragging. And it's like, No, no, no, I don't want to brag. I want to inspire. I want people to look at my trip to the Middle East. And the fact that I actually went to Syria in December but just blow somebody's mind. And then say, What in the world? If Joel can go to Syria, maybe I can actually make that trip to Montana. Or you know what - I live in Costa Rica. Maybe I can go to Nicaragua. In fact, that actually was a real thing. I was talking this guy in Costa Rica. He's like, I know you try and inspire and tell people go to a new country or go travel somewhere. He's like, I don't have that kind of money. I'm like, Well, think about it from a village perspective, or a town perspective. What if you're just trying to meet new people and you're trying to connect with other people just get on a bus and see where that takes you. You know, like, you don't have to have a ton of money. There are so many travelers who do it through their blog, financed their trips and their videos and you know, what little money you make from YouTube, or there's people who make a ton. Yeah. And there's travel infinitely. It's essentially the formula they've kind of put together of, I'm actually gonna take the leap, you know, A lot of these things. In fact, I think this whole Maven thing is you spend so much time mastering your craft, and then you decide, you know what I'm gonna put out my shingle or I'm gonna take a risk. And absolutely, people need to get inspired to do more and to make that leap. And it is a little bit intimidating. But guess what? The payoff is so huge and so rewarding. And you, you know, you can't even look back, it's like, wow, yeah. How did I get here? Yeah. If you know, those kinds of things, where you say, talk to myself 20 years ago and say, Hey, Joel, do you think that you'll travel every country in the world? And I'd laugh I'd say that mazing would that be right? I don't have that kind of money. I don't have that kind of freedom. And I've actually had a nine to five job over this last 20 years. And look, look what's possible. And I think that's what's inspiring, and I hope inspires others. More and to stretch?
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many great shows and programs out there. It's like what you're putting out on, you know, traveling epic. And then, you know, going on $1 a day or $10 a day or, you know, there’s resources now that we didn't have back then on how to do this stuff. There's Hopper and you can watch fares and get a low price. You know, it's like Erica, totally, you know, she's all over it, too, you know? And she's like, I'm going to Iceland! You want to go? Or whatever, and I'm always like, Ah! And I've taken her up on some of those things, and so it is one of those like, and it also doesn't have to be extravagant. It doesn't have to be far away. I think it's sometimes just, you know, how many of the 50 states if you live in the United States, have you seen? And all of that so it's just about I think also getting outside your comfort zone.
Joel Oleson
I met a guy who's doing every single National Park, and he's on his last one. Like one or two in every state he's doing. National parks or something.
Heather Newman
That's so cool. I've loved watching your journey and been on some of it with you too, because we can be at a lot of similar places and yeah. I don't know, traveling gives you more empathy towards the world, and we should be understanding other cultures, and there's a quote that I love from Marianne Williamson about it's not our job to shrink. It's our job to be a bright light, because if you aren't being that light, you're not inspiring other people. And why would you put yourself down or not do something? I think people see travel as glamorous and I get that too, because I travel all the time and I speak, and so people like oh, it's glamorous. And you know, it is wonderful but, you know, humping a suitcase and some of the stuff isn't so glamorous sometimes.
Joel Oleson
There's a little bit of muscling through it. In fact, on my next trip I'm working on right now, I'm traveling into Conakry, Guinea, and we're gonna, essentially, I'm meeting up with a local guy who's a technology personality there in Western Africa. He's traveling from Freetown, Sierra Leone to meet up with me and we're gonna basically take local transport across Sierra Leone, to Liberia.
Heather Newman
Wow.
Joel Oleson
And we're actually going to be doing a technology event in Freetown. And then we're going to fly to Ivory Coast.
Heather Newman
Oh, my goodness.
Joel Oleson
Yeah. So, I'm getting in four new countries. But you know, what's funny is it started with somebody saying, hey, when's your next trip? And I'm like, I'm probably gonna go to West Africa next. And he's like, When? And I'm like, I don't know. Well, let me look at my calendar to see when the next opening is. I do like to always be planning something. You know, for me it's just gets me super excited and like people will say, where are you going next? Where are you going next? Or Where were you last? Tell you those stories?
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. That's super fun. And I love that you're cataloging it. I think I remember my grandfather really never left Bay City, Michigan. But he was an avid watcher of like, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom and some other things, and we had a View Master. Remember the View masters? We'd flip through and there was one of the national parks, and he always said to me, you know, I know you're going to go all these places. And it was one of those things that inspired me to want to travel, because we would talk about what we were watching. And you know, it's that good stuff. I think travel is so good. And it's so cool that you share it, you know, sharing it in a way to inspire.
Joel Oleson
My wife even said in passing a few years ago, she's like, I want to do a safari. Not this year. But, you know, sometime.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
And so, I think it was last year. I was like, this is the year. We're gonna cash in some miles. And we're taking the family to Serengeti. We're gonna do it right, like, I want to see the crater, I want to see the migration of the wildebeest. And the idea was, I loved loved loved Ethiopia. It's one of my favorites in Africa, actually. And so, the intention was, let's go spend a week in Ethiopia amongst the tribes in the Omo Valley, and then let's go spend a week in the Serengeti. And there were moments there on that trip where my 10-year-old was amongst - we were at this little market. And, you know, you got a crowd of probably 200-300 people. And they've never seen a white person before. And they were all crowded around me and my son, and, you know, my group, my family. It was almost like we were aliens. They came up and they would touch our hands. And they wanted to touch the hair and kind of just petting it really softly. Just kind of pinching the skin just lightly. It was this moment where it was like, you know, I couldn't pay for a moment like this for my son to be able to learn what it means in terms of differences in people.
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
But also in the discovery of just understanding the depth of where we've come from, where we were, being able to see people who live in these straw huts that they built up and you know, they have their spears and bows and arrows. And these guys had like modified, like the BBs under the skin and the lip puck for the women, and like these boar tusk things that hang down from their hair. And it was like this whole experience of seeing that, plus the animals, and you see the jumping Masai. And that whole trip was just like, so mind-opening from a perspective of being able to understand early man, to kind of where we're going and what actually really matters in life. There were so many layers to this really, really fascinating to be able to just kind of see life through these people's eyes. They're not worried about what they're going to do for work today. They're like, Hey, what's on the menu? We gotta go hunting!
Heather Newman
Yeah, now we're gonna get it.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, absolutely. They're operating day to day. I've had the privilege of being able to kind of bring school supplies when I go to Africa. It actually started with, there was once I had a big box of pencils, because I was like, you know, even when I run out of notebooks and things like this, I can hand out pencils. Well, I hand out a pencil to each kid. And before long, there's kids fighting over pencils. And one kid has four pencils, and some kids have none. Like, oh, man, you know?
Heather Newman
Yeah, it shakes out like it always does a little bit.
Joel Oleson
Yeah, absolutely. There's so much we can learn; I think from experiences like that.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. That's so cool. Thank you for sharing that with everybody. And it's so nice you take your family and do those things, too. I know you do a lot of solo trips and trips with friends, but it's everybody in your life who gets to experience it in different ways. That's super cool. I love it. So, you also have some things going but you also... so let's talk about Joel 365.
Joel Oleson
Joel 365 is an effort that I started. Let me take you way back. This was probably 10 years ago. Back when I was blogging, I hadn't even monetized it yet. I was still just kind of blogging just for myself. It helped me scale. And I think a lot of people don't understand that. How could that really help you scale? Well, it was answering questions. And it was also really helping me build my personal brand without realizing that's what it was doing. And there were vendors who started saying, Wow, we love Joel's channel. You know, we love what Joel is doing with his blog. If Joel can actually post about our upcoming webinar that would be fantastic. And then it was, wouldn’t it be great if Joel could join us on this webinar?
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
And in the beginning, it seemed like everybody just does stuff for free. And so, I was like, how can I turn this into a model where it's a win win situation for everyone? So, I came up with this idea of the first time even it was Coleco had approached me and said, Hey, we want you to... and I was doing this favor of kind of just posting an announcement whenever they were doing their webinars. And then I was the host, and Christmas was coming up and I said, Hey, what if in return for me doing this webinar, you sent me the new Guitar Hero? You know, way back. And they were like, Sure, we'll do that. So, Christmas under the tree, the big present was Guitar Hero. And I was the hero because yeah. And it ended up inspiring my son to get into guitar, and it was cool how that all worked out. But that idea of it's a win for the communities because they're getting more education. So I'm basically sharing with them, and then it gives the vendor an opportunity to put a tiny little commercial at the end where they can just say And by the way, if you liked that, and you understand some of these gaps, here's how we're addressing that gap. And I think a lot of people in the community now understand this idea of these sponsored webinars where we basically educate. You don't have to always go to SharePoint Saturdays. People who are in places where they can't physically go to an event. And webinars mean that much more to them, to be able to just get educated on some topic. And so, basically, Joel 365 started out being one where it was like, Hey, when people request for me to join them on something, and then now it's evolved into I love infographics. So, I'm going to take some concept of whatever their audience needs. I'll build it into an infographic - we'll put their little logo in the corner, my logo on the other corner, and here's education for the community. And I'll post that in a blog post and across my social channels to let people know about the upcoming webinar. And that becomes collateral then lives on. Hundreds of thousands of views over time and still benefits the community who are like, Man a picture's worth 1000 words. If there was just a really good infographic on permissions or on admin or on logic apps or on models. You know, everybody's whiteboarding things. Every time somebody goes to the whiteboard, that's a potential infographic. That's kind of the way I looked at it.
Heather Newman
I agree. I agree.
Joel Oleson
And as well, every single slide deck, there's probably one. There should be at least one slide in a PowerPoint that can be turned into an infographic that would be great to share across social media. And it's a great way as well to put your logo on there, put your personal brand on there and share it.
Heather Newman
You're speaking my language!
Joel Oleson
It becomes content that people just love to consume and it's great for everybody. It benefits everyone. It's a win win win.
Heather Newman
I agree. And I think a couple of things to unpack there. I love that term, unpack. It's so of the now. There’s your personal brand. And then there's like omnichannel marketing, or to me, when I talk to clients and people about stuff, it's like, one piece of content. One, slide, one this one that, should be used like 15 times.
Joel Oleson
Yeah.
Heather Newman
And I think of it sort of like a head of lettuce. Like you can peel off a leaf of lettuce and put lettuce, make a lettuce wrap, or you can slice it up and make it into this kind of salad. But you're always - if you're not using a piece of content in a bunch of different ways, then you're just wasting money. Because everybody consumes differently. You know, some people are Twitter people, some people are Instagram, some people are TikTok. Some people like to read blogs, some people love video content. So, if you're not taking that one thing and going (zooming sound) with it, then... to me, that's the best sort of content digital omnichannel marketing you can do. Also, what I like about what you said is that you know what? At the end of the day, personal brand and your reputation and all of those things lead to value, right?
Joel Oleson
Yes, yes.
Heather Newman
And there is a monetary equivalent to value.
Joel Oleson
Yeah
Heather Newman
And it's okay to ask for it. You know what I mean?
Joel Oleson
Yeah.
Heather Newman
And there's a lot of things that we all in the community and everywhere people do for free. People volunteer, people give their time. People do all kinds of things, right? But we all also need to pay rent.
Joel Oleson
Gott put food on the table. I've got couple of kids in college. How are we gonna make that work if we give everything away?
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. So, I think that to me, what you've done with this and the monetization of it, I think is awesome. And I think it's also inspirational to other people to say, Hey, you know what? Value yourself value the beautiful brain you have, value what you have to say in the world. And it's okay to ask to be paid for that. And if you don't ask then you'll never know. When people just keep taking things for free from you.
Joel Oleson
And there's absolutely a way to turn that value-based pricing of how many leads are they going to get? When I do a webinar, absolutely there's a campaign to get that out through email, through social. And then when I actually get to the webinar, and I look and I see, oh, wow, there's 500 people who are online or 400 people online. I do so much better because I get inspired by this. What I've invested in, my time to deliver this is going to be used. People are going to consume this. One of the one of the most popular questions asked on every single webinar is, how do I get the deck? Or How can I get the recording? So absolutely part of this is, I've got a SlideShare where there's over 170 decks now, of topics I've covered, for the past 15-plus years, where people can go and find stuff I've done. Because it is value to the community, giving it away. It's good stuff but often you'll find a little logo at the bottom. Some vendor benefited as well. And people will choose whether they're going to pick up the phone when they call. In fact, one of the things I've incorporated is these polls, because I want to... the poll question's gonna be, Hey, do you have specific needs here? Are there services you need? Or does this product resonate with what your needs are? You're self-selecting even. That way the people who are like, you know what? I was on here just to get an answer to this question or whatever. You can opt out essentially, as well, saying, you know, this actually didn't apply, because I only need this other thing.
Heather Newman
Yeah, absolutely. And that's the beauty of spam laws and, you know, being good about that kind of stuff, which I know you are, and I am too, and I encourage that with everyone. But now, that's exciting. It's so fun. And you have a lot going on, but to me, I understand it, one because I have a lot going on, but you know what I mean. Technology informs the traveling and traveling informs the technology and the sharing of content with technology and travel and all that stuff. It makes sense that you've got these different platforms that sort of blend and ebb and flow together.
Joel Oleson
Yeah. Let's say I am going to an event in Chicago, or I had work in Chicago. There's two ways to take that. You could say, I'm gonna go to my hotel room and crash because I'm not working.
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
And then then they fly home. What kind of life is that? That's not a fun, exciting, interesting kind of life. And there's many road warriors that that's the way they do life is they focus on Okay, I guess I'm gonna be sleeping in the hotel room. Or you know, you talk to somebody and say Hey, what did you do this week? Oh, I went to Chicago. Oh, that's cool. Did you see anything? No, I worked. It's like, well, just because you work doesn't mean you couldn't go see the Bean.
Heather Newman
Right!
Joel Oleson
Or you couldn't go see a speakeasy or two just to see? There are so many cool jazz clubs. Like, hey, guess what? You're part of a community. What if you reached out to people in that community who are in Chicago? I'm a big fan of, Hey, who's a friend of friend, or who's a friend here in this city who can show me their city?
Heather Newman
Yeah. So, when I was in Chicago, I was pinging people - Hey, let's go out. I want to go see things. And I think that that networking in community is absolutely a gamechanger. In fact, I'll take you way back to one of my first trips after I left Microsoft. And I did spend like, probably 10 years of my life through various, you know, FTE, plus contract and so on. When I left Microsoft, I was ready to join this wave of, I want to lead the community. I want to be a leader here. I want to do more -` I want to connect the community globally. Right.
Joel Oleson
And bring people up and give more people visibility, instead of just folks in the US. Let's make this a true global community. So, I posted on my blog, I said, Hey, I'm traveling to this event. It was a SharePoint conference in Istanbul and Dubai, back in 2008.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
And I said, Hey, I'm going here. I don't want to just fly into those events and fly home. I want to go see the world. Should I go to Petra? Should I go to the pyramids? Or should I go to Jerusalem? And I expected this to be a poll question where people would say, Oh, go to Petra, or Petra is too dangerous, or go to the pyramids. They're so amazing. They'll blow your mind. Instead, what happened, and I think a lot of this happened because of where our community was at... Mo from Jordan says, Hey Joel, come to Jordan, and you can come speak at our user group and we will take you to Petra.
Heather Newman
Wow.
Joel Oleson
Mind blown, you know, Wow, that's so cool. Wow, so cool. By the way, he used that as an opportunity to launch the user group, which I didn't know. So, we met with seven Jordanian guys and gals at this restaurant.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
And, you know, breaking bread with the community in Jordan. It was so amazing, and it was so meaningful to me and to those who were there. And that wasn't the only blog post answer. This guy from Israel says, because I did an update, I did a comment, Hey, I'm going to Jordan. I'm going go to Petra. I'm super excited. This guy from Israel says, Hey, you know what? Moses stopped in Jordan. The prophet Joel can't stop in Jordan - you need to come to Israel. Whoa, this is amazing. And he's like, if you come to Israel, I'm gonna hook you up with the user group. You can speak at our user group. And we will personally take you to where Jesus walked. And this is a Jewish guy, where it's like the community transcends religion, politics, all this.
Heather Newman
Yup. Amazing.
Joel Oleson
Absolutely. That all came to pass. It was a fantastic time. I love to tell that story because I later found out that I had started a thread with my two guests (or my two hosts), not realizing I had a Jew and a Palestinian on the same thread, working out how they're going to pass me across the border.
Heather Newman
Wow!
Joel Oleson
And that was so incredible. In fact, the Israeli guy actually met me in the West Bank to pick me up. And, you know, my time with the Palestinians ended up being very memorable as well. We ended up having a couple of SharePoint Saturday's later in Palestine. And I was actually able to support Moe - his first time being able to go to Jerusalem was when he came to that Palestine SharePoint Saturday, something that I kind of helped facilitate.
Heather Newman
Yeah, amazing.
Joel Oleson
Amazing. There are so many stories, so many trips.
Heather Newman
Yeah. I'm with you. I mean, between my theater community, my Burning Man community, and my tech community, it's like, I'm coming to town, and you know, people are so generous. Meals at homes and showing you things and just, like Darrell and Lorien stopped here on their way back from Ignite and I took them to the Petersen Museum on their way back down under. So, it's fun when you get those calls of, Hey, I want to see... and you get to show off your city.
Joel Oleson
And I had the invers happen. This guy from Bangladesh was coming to Summit. And somehow, we connected, because I was like, Hey, next time you guys do an event, I want to connect. And he's like, Hey, Joel, I've never been to California. And so, he landed, and I took him around for a couple days. And then less than a year later, I went to Bangladesh, and he was my host. Cool, too. This makes the world so much smaller.
Heather Newman
Yeah, it certainly does. I think it's one of those things where I geek out about travel and technology all the time, but I hope that, you know, there's all kinds of options, and leaning into your communities that you belong to, they're there for everybody. And it doesn't have to be tech; it can be all kinds of things. But it's about taking the step of asking a question and reaching out and wanting to say hello to people, and you do that in so many ways.
Joel Oleson
It's a little bit like crowd surfing.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
If you if you remember the first time you went crowd surfing and maybe a lot of you haven't. But the first time, it's very intimidating because you're like, Am I too heavy? Is somebody gonna catch me?
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
What's gonna happen? And so, I've done it a couple times. Most of the time I'm too heavy now, but I'm the guy who lifts people up, and it is very much a faith-promoting experience of guess what? People are gonna support you and help you out.
Heather Newman
They got you.
Joel Oleson
And it's gonna be mind blowing, mind altering, life changing experience when you start. It's unlike anything because basically you put your trust in the community. You have no idea who these people are.
Heather Newman
Yeah, exactly.
Joel Oleson
They have the same passions and appetites you do and it's really cool. I'm on a number of travel communities as well. There's like, these people who are every passport stamp on Facebook. It's a group where it's like everybody's chasing the 193.
Heather Newman
Right, right, right.
Joel Oleson
And so, here's the other people. So I'll say, Hey, I'm trying to get to Libya or whatever, and people will chime in and give you Here's who I used and here's the fixer, or you might want to come in this way, not that way. Avoid this spot. We help each other out.
Heather Newman
Oh, totally. It's lovely, that's for sure. So, your current role.... Your job-job, if you will.
Joel Oleson
My nine to five.
Heather Newman
You're a director at Perficient.
Joel Oleson
That's correct.
Heather Newman
Yeah. Perficient is a great company. I have many friends there and family that have worked at Perficient. It's a lovely company.
Joel Oleson
Yeah. So Perficient.... Blizzard was an incredible ride, but they ended up laying off a bunch of people, and yeah, we can hold it against them. (laughing) But I did kind of an independent thing for a while, but I always knew that I was probably going to end up trying to find somebody who supported my goals and align them with their goals.
Heather Newman
Sure.
Joel Oleson
And Chris Hines from Perficient, who's a general manager over the Microsoft practice basically, all up the main guy for the Microsoft stack. He called me up and we were talking about it, and he had basically painted this picture of... We could really use an evangelist. We could use somebody who could tell our story. We need a storyteller. We want somebody who will go and speak at events and improve the community, share the message, and tell some of our stories about what we've done. It's like, we've done some really Herculean things. We've got these great case studies that sit on our website, but we really want the community to hear these stories. Wouldn't it be great? Because here's what's funny is you've got this chasm between marketing and IT. And this tech, even the consultants in the technology group where they're trying to be billable. Every hour of the day, they're trying to hit their number, and whether that's 70 or 80%, or whatever, they're trying to hit their number, and obviously, the higher the number, the better the bonus or whatever. Then you got the marketing folks over here, who are trying to share the message. And they've got their budget. And they're sponsoring the baseball game or they're doing some Hey, let's do our content calendar. And let's do so many webinars, and they reach out. And the consultants are like, Well, I'm not reimbursed to do that, and there's not a lot of incentive for me to go do that.
Heather Newman
Right.
Joel Oleson
And so I sit in this kind of unique position where I can say, Hey, people who are working on this, I'll work it out with their manager, and I can essentially fill in some of the gaps and connect them with marketing. It creates a bridge between marketing and the technology. So, I sit in this kind of interesting position.
Heather Newman
That's a very cool position. And you're coming to us today from where? I know but tell everybody.
Joel Oleson
I am in Oceanside, California. In Paradise.
Heather Newman
As you know, my family is down there usually for a month every year. So, Simeon and I actually went with Joel. And we did a surfing lesson in Oceanside. That was like what, four or five years ago now maybe?
Joel Oleson
Yeah, I bet it was four or five. Yeah, maybe five years. I love Oceanside. The temperature is so perfect. And it's the longest pier in California. The boardwalks are great. There's a really nice harbor and marina. People are always coming on their vacations to this area, so it's fun to run into people who are headed down this way. And anybody who's listening who's ever like, Hey, I wonder if Joel would be bothered if I you know, gave him a ring - I love doing those little lunches or catching dinner with people.
Heather Newman
Yeah. I do too.
Joel Oleson
People should never feel like I'm inaccessible. I am probably one of the most accessible people in the community. Like, seriously, no barriers, no holds barred. If you have questions or you want to ask me something, I think that is really important. Like transparency. Like, really like, ask me. Let's connect.
Heather Newman
Yeah, we're gonna put all your stuff in the show notes so they'll be able to connect with you every way possible. So that'd be great.
Joel Oleson
That's great.
Heather Newman
Absolutely. So, I can't wait to come down and visit again. So... last question that I ask everyone.... So, I'm very interested in what sparks us and moments in our lives. And I love having our guests share with our listeners, if you can pinpoint a moment. It could be a person, it could be an experience, it could be a book, whatever. And you probably have more than one, but what is a spark or a moment that you can point to that you're like, this brings me to who I am and where I am today, in this very moment? Something that you could share with us.
Joel Oleson
Yeah. So, one of the things that kids say these days is "woke." I think that this idea of really being awakened and kind of being very conscious about who I am and what I'm doing. And it's really the thinking outside the box, kind of thing for me. I like to imagine as if I'm supposed to do big things in this life. I'm not supposed to live a monotonous life. I'm actually - this life is one where my destiny is to do great things and big things. And so, I try and line up my aspirations and grow. When I was in college, it was like, oh, what am I going to do when I grow up? You know, these kinds of things. And it's like, Well, I've learned that it's not one thing. I've learned that it's a continuous evolution - a continuous experience of I may not know the answer to that, but I do know what feels good. I know what's right. I know that I know what I like. Travel is a good example of something where I know I can take these experiences with me. I'm going to have these for the rest of my life. Where if I have a truck, that truck is eventually gonna... Maybe it won't be like Todd Clint's Firebird. (laughing) For me, there's things that come and go, but the things that last are relationships.
Heather Newman
Yeah.
Joel Oleson
The experiences last. And so, I try and collect experiences. I try and really make deep, more meaningful connections. And I try and get to that next level with people. I want to connect and find their real selves, because just like I want to be able to share who I really am. And I think that idea of I'm woke, and I'm looking for other woke. And I'm trying to help people get out of that. It's a rat race. There's the hamster wheel. And anything I can do to help people get off of that hamster wheel and say, you know what? You're bigger than this. You're better than this. There's more you can be doing in this life. And that's the whole thing about getting inspired. I was on a on a plane with a mailman. And he's like, there was somebody in the office who was talking about hiking Kilimanjaro. And he's like, guess what? I just went out and did it - just to spite that person. And I was like, Wow, that is super cool. I love that idea of, you know - I'll be flipping through the National Geographic and I'll be like, There. I want to go there. And I'll make it happen. It is not inaccessible. Any dream is absolutely possible. You're reading in a magazine; you're reading in a book. You're like, Oh, wouldn't it be great to go to Timbuktu? Guess what? I know the guide are there. I can help you out.
Heather Newman
(laughing) I love it!
Joel Oleson
Yeah, nothing is impossible. Absolutely go out and live life and realize it and connect with it.
Heather Newman
Yeah. Love it.
Joel Oleson
It's all possible.
Heather Newman
I love it. It's like the quest for being authentic and authenticity in yourself and others and being inspired and learning from it.
Joel Oleson
It's like, what is this life about? Well, this life is absolutely a test. I don't care what kind of religion or faith you have that comes into this. But imagine that we are here and the thing that we should be doing is trying to live life to the fullest. I'm not talking about taking drugs or whatever I'm talking about How can we accomplish what we can only dream up? And that that resonance of bigger dreams and more amazing... you know you can do it. Don't let anybody else tell you that you can't. Just Do It!
Heather Newman
I love it! I am fired up! I might go run around the block, you know? Love it. Thank you!
Joel Oleson
Come on, let's do it. You know what? One of the things I'm very happy about is I was able to do Cuba with Tom, our friend Tom. In terms of things he did in his life, that was probably one of the moments where he really was out of the box. And I just felt really, really, really happy to be able to share that moment with him. I love being able to take somebody who lives in this nine to five world, who their big trip for the summer is going to the next state over or visiting they’re their parents or whatever, and saying, Hey, let's go somewhere. And I'm not talking Hawaii - let's go to Samoa. Let's go to the Philippines. Think big. Where would you go if you could go? And let me help you make that happen.
Heather Newman
You dreamer. I love it. Good. So good. Yay. And yeah, thank you. Joel was just mentioning our friend and colleague, Tom Castiglia, who passed away about a year ago this last week. We were all down at the Office 365 SharePoint Saturday and talked about him and we all miss him very much. So, love to Martha, his wife, and family as well. Glad you shared that with him. That's pretty cool.
Joel Oleson
I think that's the thing - is life is short. So, what are the things that we can do to be able to share memories with our family? It's like, if I just go to work and come home, my kids are gonna just watch tons of TV. Obviously, you got to turn that TV off, but you know what's better than turning the TV off and saying go play outside? It's Hey, let's go camping. Let's go on a road trip. Let's go. Let's look at flights. Guess where you can fly for four hundred bucks? In fact, this is a real one. I was just looking this week. Okay, fly all the way - one way, but you can fly all the way to Bali for it was $266 this week.
Heather Newman
Wow.
Joel Oleson
I'm not saying it is right now. But round trip I found it for 700 bucks, like just recently. Guess where I'm going for my 25th year anniversary?
Heather Newman
Bali?
Joel Oleson
Bali!
Heather Newman
Yay.
Joel Oleson
That's one of my favorites in the whole world.
Heather Newman
That's so awesome. Oh my gosh. I could talk to you for like another four hours... BUT Can I just say thank you and you got me all like, hyped up but I'm pretty hyped up anyway. So, thank you for that.
Joel Oleson
Sorry,
Heather Newman
Thank you for sharing all of that and travel and personal brand and the technology, and what you're doing with Joel 365 and traveling epic. It's really, it's all very epic, my friend. So, thank you.
Joel Oleson
Aww, Fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's great to be on here and talk to your listeners and viewers. I think this is actually another good example of things that I like doing. Things that can amplify my message and my story. It's like, don't be afraid to tell your story. I think there's people out there, the haters, who will say, Eh, you're just bragging, or Hey you're so into yourself. You have to just like push through that stuff because it's garbage. And it's not helpful. So much of our story needs to be told. There's absolutely this kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. If we see ourselves as someone that people need, that our message will inspire and enlighten them and bring them up? It absolutely can do that and will do that.
Heather Newman
Absolutely.
Joel Oleson
And the more we tell it, the better our message will be and get more honed.
Heather Newman
The more we practice. The more we say it out loud. Use your voice. Own your voice.
Joel Oleson
Find your passion and go live it, man.
Heather Newman
Exactly. Yeah, that burning desire, right?
Joel Oleson
Absolutely. Got to get that kindling going and build the fire. Find the other people who have that same fire and just gonna build that bonfire and go do something. Find a friend who will go do it with you, you know?
Heather Newman
Absolutely. Love it. You're the best. You are! It's so good. I thank you for being in my life. It's great. So, thank you.
Joel Oleson
Oh, I appreciate you.
Heather Newman
All right, Joel. Thank you. You're amazing.
Joel Oleson
Thanks. I really appreciate it.
Heather Newman
Okay, well, everyone that has been another episode of The Mavens Do It Better podcast. Yes. And here is to another beautiful day on this big blue spinning sphere. Thanks, everyone. The original music on this podcast was created by Jesse Case.