Episode 18: Consultant Maven Matthew McDermott

Heather: Hello everyone we're here with another episode of Mavens Do It Better and I'm so excited to have a wonderful friend and colleague on today, Matthew McDermott, who I'll, I'll give a little bit of a bio on him because he's so amazing. And He, uh, first of all, you're a 13-time Microsoft Office Apps and Services MVP, so 13 y'all. That's a huge number.

Matthew:  It is kind of a weird number because they did a little hiccup in the middle so some of us got kind of a cycled the second time, but um, but yeah, that's pretty crazy.

Heather:  That's right. Sometimes the second cycle is what you need, you know, for sure. So anyway, I just adore him and we got to catch up together in Copenhagen at the European SharePoint conference and we got to talking and he to me is a maven of many things, but definitely, you know, the consulting world and being an MVP and working with clients and customers and so wanted to have him on to talk a little bit about that and what sparks him and you know, the typical stuff we talk about on our podcast. But I thought it would be a fun conversation to have with you to talk about all that sort of thing and. Oh yes. Oh No, I was getting there. Don't worry. We both have a love of the furry creatures of the dogs sort. And I love watching your wonderful world on social media with your dog and it's so wonderful. So anyway, say hi to everybody will ya? Yeah

Matthew:  Hi everybody! heather, thank you so much for having me on. It was awesome catching up with you in Copenhagen and, and I've been a huge fan of your podcast for a while, so I'm glad you. I'm glad you agreed to have me on.

Heather:  Absolutely. And uh, you have such a much fancier setup than I do. You look wicked professional over there.

Matthew:  That's my, that's my, my big podcasting microphone that I use for doing my desktop recordings and stuff like that. But yeah, it makes me look like a sportscaster, a sports announcer.

Heather:  I know, I'm like, I'm about ready to hear "And he's going off!". Absolutely. So, so I guess you've been a consultant for a long time and worked with tons of clients and stuff and will you talk about some best practices and things that you've learned along the way? Um, in doing so because I, I know you've got such a great rich career around that

Matthew:  I'd love to. I'd love to. I, um, so I moved to Austin 20 years ago and prior to that I had worked as an independent consultant. Um, I was writing code and helping customers with database issues and stuff like that. And this was back, the Internet was new, people figuring out how to use the web was new and so there was a lot of different things that, that um, consultants could get into. And, and I was hired by a consulting company here in Austin and I ended up working there for 12 years. Was a fantastic experience for me. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about it is the CEO at the time, he would do this, this formal boot camp and it was a full day indoctrination into the culture of the company. And it, it, it really wasn't technical. It was really about, yeah, there was the usual, how do you fill out your time sheet, how do you do this, how do you do that? But easily the first four hours of the class or of the boot camp was about the culture of the company and making sure that people could fit into that culture. Um, the thing I was proud of is that, um, after I got into search and rescue with my dog, we would come to boot camp, my dog and I, and, and, and be part of it. And so we would get to train all of the new, we would get to talk to all of the new recruits as they come in. And so as the company grew, we were in multiple cities and this whole notion of how important company culture is, was really ingrained into people. And what I would talk about is what's the special thing that you bring? What is your, you know, if you're the best cookie baker than bring cookies. If in my case, I was a dog trainer and in my spare time, I train, raised and trained search and rescue dogs and she and I would go work. We worked after Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita, Hurricane Ike, we worked for the FBI. We did a, um, a, a, a super-secret thing down on the border to try to help out with some drug cartel stuff that was unrelated to the drugs, but it was related to helping to find people and it was fascinating work. Had absolutely nothing to do with being a consultant, but the company embraced that. And that's really why we came and talked during boot camp is because I would come in and say you guys got hired to be accountants and consultants and programmers and developers but that's not really why you're here. Why you're here is what lights your fire, why you're here is that special thing that makes you, you. For me, it's search dogs. So the company embraces that. So don't be shy. Tell people what the thing is, that's special to you and embrace it. Enjoy it. And so being a consultant for me was something I was very passionate about. I love being a consultant. Now I'm out of the consulting world and I'm ecstatic about being out of the consulting world because I'm enjoying a new challenge, you know? And it's been, it's been crazy because I'm working in, duh-duh-duh marketing.

New Speaker:   Hey, how you doing?

Matthew:  So, it's too bad we don't have any synergy anymore because I'm in marketing now.

Heather:  Oh, come on. What a cool thing though because I think it's something that is so, it's not, I don't even want to call it basic but in a way it's, you know, sometimes you work with people for 20 years or 10 or whatever and you have no idea who they are or what, what drives them, what their why is, you know, why they get up out of bed every morning, every morning. And that it's, it's a cool thing that you got exposed to early on in your career.

Matthew:  It is, it is. It's really something that has at the time, it definitely changed me. It's something that I, you know, a lot of people would say, oh the boot camp how about that. And I was like, you know, that was really important to me because it's, I, the reason I travel, it's not to go see a city, it's to meet people. I would be much happier in a, in a wild rainstorm, sitting in a pub in Haarlem talking with the people there than a beautiful, clear pristine day in walking around the churches. It's that human connection constantly that, that drives me. And that's my why, right? That's why I travel. Sure. I go to conferences and I speak and do all that stuff. But the thing that I love to do is I love to connect with people.

Heather:  We share a why.

Matthew:  Two whys. Now we have dogs and people.

Heather:  Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm all about spreading the joy like peanut butter on a really good piece of bread too.

Matthew:  Yeah. I always felt, I've always felt that I'm the ambassador is that, you know, when I hear people say, you know, you're, you're that American guy that was here last year. You know, like when we, we, there's this, there's a bar that we love to go to in, in Haarlem. And the first time I met the guys that run the place absolutely fell in love with them and they keep. It's really fascinating. They have a book, so when you come in and you place your order, they don't ring you up, they have a book and so they write something in the book and they keep track. And the second time I was there I said, can I see the book because I've noticed that you guys look through the book and then you ring out one number on the cash register when you're done. And he kind of looked at me, kind of sheepishly like, why do you want to look in the book? And I said, I want to know what you call me. And he goes, oh, that's easy. And he turns it around and I took a picture of it and posted it. It says the American. Okay. That works

Heather:  To be clear. You're talking about Haarlem in the Netherlands? Not Harlem, New York City.

Matthew:  In the Netherlands. Yes. The original. The original Haarlem. That's right. The original Haarlem outside the original Amsterdam. Because New York was New Amsterdam and Harlem is Harlem. And so I was The American in the bar. And it was hilarious that, that they kept track that way. And so I said, next time I come in, I want you to write my name. And so, and I didn't say it in a bad way, I just said it, that I want you to get to know me so that when I come walking in, so now year after year we go in and um, and the guys in the bar will see me, they get ecstatic that we're back, that my wife and I are back and they greet us like we're friends. In fact, a year ago when we were there, we came in, got greeted just like, we were long lost brothers, came in, got hugs from all the bartenders. They knew what, they just brought us our drinks because they knew what we drink. And we sat down and this couple came over and said, well, so do you live here? Very American accent. And I said, no. I said, no, we just come to visit and we love these guys. So, um, this is like at that point, this is like our fourth visit. And I said, we just made friends and we catch up once a year and it's fun and, and the wife says, well, because we've lived here for a year and they don't greet us like that. So she and her husband had moved there to work for one of the big companies and um, and they ride their bikes, their kids go to school there, you know, and, and so riding your bike in, in Harlem and all around Amsterdam is the thing to do, like 25 percent of the vehicles on the road are bicycles. And um, and so it was just really funny that, that they had noticed that they, the way that we had gotten greeted and it was really fun.

Heather:  Yeah. No, that's awesome. Yeah, there is something to going back to places, and I do the same thing. I, I am lucky enough to travel a lot for work and speaking and all of that. And I love going back and visiting places and friends and staying with friends. I'm lucky that I get to stay with people a lot instead of, I try to opt for that instead of hotel rooms. I would rather be really good guest and do dishes and cook and give a nice gifts and, and stay with people and get to know the, you know, get to know their worlds, you know, for sure. So.

Matthew:  Well it's, it's such a, it's, it's the way you learn the culture. You don't learn the culture going to the American restaurant and going to the top rated restaurant on yelp. You learn it by going down the back alleys and finding those niches. And then by going back, there are a lot of countries and places I've been that I have not returned to but I would like to. But I part of the vacation for me is resting my mind on not having to learn a new place, but getting to go deeper into places and then going back in different seasons is huge. Haarlem in June is very different than Harlem in November. Um, you know, the market is out and, and all the fresh food is out during and all the fresh flowers in the spring and summertime is amazing and you just don't see that side of it in the wintertime. So that's another fun way to go back to places.

Heather:  Yeah, absolutely. I've been to Amsterdam many times now and different seasons, same thing with Copenhagen, you know, like Christmas markets versus the springtime and all of that and I think that's something that, you know, getting to work in technology or in any industry, but especially in technology. Then also becoming an MVP and having the opportunity to be asked to come and do things. You know, I think that's a big honor and also a real, I guess it's a lovely perk I guess of that too, you know, that you do get to go experience and bring different elements of technology to different people in the world and learn about, you know, when I'm doing the diversity work that I do in conjunction with technology, you know, it's a different conversation in different places. It seems same as far as like everybody being equal and human and wonderful, but it's also, there's different nuances to it. We saw that in Puerto Rico and having that conversation and with Allister and Melissa and holding a panel there and having that be like, how do you shift the conversation to make it so that it's relevant to them and um, poignant and all of that that, that you're not laying down something on top of people that are like, Hey, Puerto Rico's wicked diverse. We're already, we come that way. You know what I mean? So I think, yeah, very lucky. And so, you've been an MVP for 13 years will you talk about that and maybe how that program's evolved and changed, and what that’s like?

Matthew:  the, the MVP program, probably the single most confusing thing to folks that don't know the program is that it's not a certification. There's a lot of people that'll say, well, this person is a certified MVP. And it's like, well, it's not, it's, it's an award. It's an annual award that Microsoft, um, bestows upon individuals who, work in the community. Now it's tied to a technology as you know. And so originally my original MVP was I was a SharePoint MVP, so that was a server product at the time, it wasn't in the cloud, there really was no cloud. but it was a, it was along those lines. So back, back then, there are, there are still, but there were PowerPoint MVPs that were Xbox MVPs, there were, um, I don't think there were any notepad MVPs, but we do make fun of some of the older people in our group that are were the MVP of Fire and uh, um, MVP of fire and MVP of notepad, things like that. So it's evolved into fewer categories across, broader, across a broader swath of technology. And usually it's aligned with the technology. So, in my case, since I talk a lot about SharePoint and Office 365, um, I am according to Microsoft an Office Apps and Services MVP. And um, and now what I'm doing, I'm working as a, I'm the principal technical marketing engineer for Spanning Cloud apps and we build a cloud to cloud backup solution for Office 365. We have two other products. We have one for one for Salesforce and one for G-Suite, but I focus on the Office 365 side of things.

Heather:  Okay, that's cool. So with, so you, you work, so enterprise, small, medium business, do you run the gamut? For the most part?

Matthew:  I do, I, I, I'm proud of saying that I don't turn away, I don't like to turn away anybody. So I've worked for, I've worked for sole proprietors that are trying to get their, um, their businesses into the cloud. They're trying to really, what they're trying to do is they're trying to sleep better at night and trying to figure out how the cloud can help them do that. So I'm actually launching a new, um, a new session this year. I think I'll be doing it. I'm almost positive I'll be doing it in Austin SPTechCon for the first time in February. And um, it's, it's called "Your Business Isn't Too Small for the Cloud" and it touches on what small businesses can use the cloud for. how it can save them money, even though it does cost money, it can still save you a lot of time, a lot of hassle and help you sleep better at night, you know, because you're, you're protected. The customer that I'm thinking of, we went from all of his stuff in boxes and file cabinets, to stored on his laptop. And if he ever lost his laptop he would die. To a point now where he doesn't have any paper files and everything's in an Office 365 or some other app or some other cloud app. And if he loses a laptop, it doesn't matter. He goes back to Best Buy, buys another version of that laptop, logs in, gets into Office 365 and he's up and running in an hour. And that's crazy considering where he came from. So. So those are the kinds of things that I like to do. And then we'd take that all the way up to the enterprise. Right? Is it 200,000 employees and you're trying to, you're trying to find something. Search is another passion of mine. a friend of mine asked me the other day, is there any coincidence that you're a search dog handler and you like to do search? So with my, with my cohort, my, uh, my partner in crime, Agnes Molnar and I, we've been running search workshops. Just finished one up in, uh, in Orlando and we'll be doing our next one in Branson, Missouri at the North American Collaboration Summit if you're, if you go to the North American Collaboration Summit site, they just launched our, it's a silly little promo video, but it's, I think it's hilarious because we were sitting outside in Orlando freezing, absolutely freezing, trying to do this video and we're very under caffeinated and um, and we just decided to sit down on the curb and knock it out and uh, and it came off kind of silly, but it's fun.

Heather:  That's awesome. Yeah, she was my second podcast that I did.

Matthew:  I know, I know. Search maven.

Heather:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was, you know, it was nice to um, you know, uh, learn, uh, uh, on a couple of friends where I was like, I'm figuring out equipment and doing all that kind of stuff. And so yeah. And Tracy from a ESPC and Agnes were my first victims if you will. Ha, ha ha,

Matthew:  those were good, I liked those. Those were good podcast. They came out really well.

New Speaker:   Thank you. Yeah, no, absolutely. So you know, you, I know that, you know, you have the search and rescue that you do and I know that you're a cook and a bartender and all of those things. I see the pictures and all of that. Um, I don't know where, where do you go and get away for inspiration or what things do you like to kind of, find that work life balance? I think we don't talk about mental health and burnout enough and we work in such fast paced environments with a lot of pressure. And how do you, how do you unplug? You know?

Matthew:  Well actually for me it's really easy. I live in Austin, Texas and the subdivision that I live in is adjacent to the Barton Creek Greenbelt and so, so I can have Ruby off leash in about five minutes and we can go for seven to 10 miles in one direction without running into, without running into any, we'll run into people because it's a beautiful place. Even on a weekday there'll be folks out there mountain biking and stuff like that. But um, right now the creek is full and so Ruby gets to swim and she loves to jump in. So she'll do these epic huge dog jumps and chase sticks and just, she, she has a great time and I cannot, I can't be thinking about stress while I'm watching this dog just absolutely revel in nature. So that's how I unplug a lot of times. It's also behind my camera. that's kind of my creative outlet is I love to take photos and uh, and maybe in the show notes we'll throw in my Instagram account and I'll, uh, I'll show that. But um, yeah, so those are kinda the two things that I like to do the most. I love to cook, I love to eat, I love to mix craft cocktails. A friend of mine does out, does a podcast called the Bar Reviver and that kinda got me re-inspired to learn how to do some of these classic craft cocktails. And that's a, that's a real fun one too.

Heather:  That's awesome. So maybe another technology question. I think, you know, we've, we're, as you were talking about the person that you got, you know, from having things on their desk and you know, in files and then finally into their laptop and then into the cloud. We've seen Teams explode onto the scene here. And how are you finding clients adopting Teams?

Matthew:  I think it's a mixed bag. It's kind of funny. The company I'm working at now, we are not an Office 365 shop. We're a Gmail, Slack and um, and assorted other cloud-based services that we use to manage all of our projects. And it's really fascinating to see how effective you can be as long as those technologies are ingrained in a little bit of awareness and um, and ingrained into appropriate communication channels. So, for instance, I've been working on some PowerShell and getting the PowerShell module together for my company, right? It's part of it's part of something our administrators can use to be able to manage their, their accounts a little bit better. And my first question was I'm getting ready to do the recording and I'm thinking what, what resolution should I use so I can just jump on Slack, I can see of the people I know can answer the question, which ones are online right away and I can just ping them and then I can know that that conversation is stored somewhere so I don't have to go plow through email and go find it. And it's the immediacy of that communication. Whereas yesterday in a meeting we were talking about what we're going to be doing for 2019 and that's not as, that's it's, that's more sticky. That takes a little longer to figure out so that, the result of that communication are coming to us in email. And so I think that as long with Teams and with Slack, with a lot of the new communication channels that are being thrown at us as long as companies are using them in a way that is appropriate for the type of communication that's occurring. Um, I can give you another example. The, uh, the video that Agnes and I did that started out as a request on a Facebook, Facebook messenger and then fast became, wait a second, can we move this to email because I'm not going to be on my phone trying to read 27 pages just because you're on a browser and you can paste in your huge message.

New Speaker:   You can always tell if somebody is on a browser with WhatsApp or whatever. And I type really fast anyway. But people are like, I cannot keep up with you because I'm on my phone and I'm like, okay, fair enough.

New Speaker:   And there's. But there's also the stickiness of it too. If you're going to send me four links to things that I want to be able to review later, having to remember where I saw those things. Email ends up becoming the,` sort of my permanent record of that. And even if I get somebody that says, Hey, can you do this? Yes, I can do that and I or we want to change the project`, this is another good one, we want to change the project and the subtle way, can you change it this way? Well, if that's an a Teams channel instead of being in an email so that I can make it an official record of the project that it's a change, then it becomes a bigger challenge. And so as long as folks understand how to switch context and understand where one thing goes versus the other. one of the things I love about both Teams and Slack is the integration with third party tools. So if somebody breaks the build, then then that Bot can push it into the Teams channel where everybody can see, oh my gosh, we've got a broken build, and then someone else can say, okay, that was on me, I broke it, I'll get on it. And so right away you have, again, it's the immediacy factor of knowing that, that the communication is taking place in the right place.

Heather:  Got It. Yeah. Are you a SXSWer, since you live in Austin?

Matthew:  so, I did the first three original SXSWs because the company I was working for at the time had a sister company that was a survey tool and as a result we were doing the marketing surveys for south by, so we got free tickets and that was great. That was great. So we saw some really amazing bands, but I'm not a crowd person so I don't, I don't do the big festivals. I like the small more intimate venues like Continental Club and a 1 to 1 Bar and stuff like that in Austin. Those are fun.

Heather:  I went to SXSW. I've been a few times, but I think my first one, it was in, I think it was 1990 it must have been or 93, something like that. Why? I can't even remember when it started. Is it? That's probably around the time that it got going.

Matthew:  Ninety-three I think it was. I think. I don't know exactly, but I think it was around back then. Yeah. They're coming up on a big anniversary and now it's two weekends. It used to just be a three day festival.

Heather:  Yeah. Well, and it's sort of a launch point for so many things now. It used to be just the music, you know? I mean, but yeah, I, I. There was a bar on sixth street.

Matthew:  Oh, and you know what I was thinking of ACL. You're talking about south by.

New Speaker:   Oh yeah, yeah.

New Speaker:   you're right. Yeah. I was talking about ACL festival south by obviously it's been around forever and you know, so, and it's much more. It's music, it's film, it's interactive, it's the, in fact I was, I was the Microsoft guy on a content management panel on the interactive side of things and that was hilarious. We had a lot of fun with that. We had a lot, because the guys that I met with, they were, you know, they were Open Source and Drupal and, and all these other CMSs that I'd never heard of. And so I was the Microsoft Guy, you know, it was hilarious. We had a really good time.

Heather:  I know is I think sort of back in. I mean, I've been in and around for about 18, 20 years and the Microsoft space too, and for, you know, different places in different settings, you become the Microsoft person, you know, because you're the one person in the room and so not only do you get the, the Microsoft Gal, but you also get, Hey, um, and they hand you something, you know, a device. You become the IT department for everybody in the room. Do you remember a bar called the Bates Motel on sixth street at all? It was, it was a divey, divey, divey place and um, it was one of those where it was like musicians and then people would walk in with their instruments and then sit down and be like, hey, we need a horn. You know, we need a sax and we need a whatever. But I remember it was that they played an endless loop of the movie Psycho. Know, on one of the televisions. Yeah, that place just stuck in my mind. I don't think it's there anymore, but I think that was just one of those 20 years ago, small divey bars in Austin. That was kind of awesome. So

Matthew:  there's, there's a number of bars that have been, that were here when I, when I moved here and have gone by the wayside that are part of, part of a, like a, um, so Antone's kind of came and went because of some issues that he had legally, but Antone's is back. And then um, one of my favorites was the Zona Rosa and as some of the best, absolutely most amazing music concerts, um, small venue, mid-sized venue. But I saw Richard Thompson was five feet away from him while he was playing Vincent Black Lightning. Kev-Mo, several times. Kev-Mo is just astounding. And some other artists like Robert Earl Keen who's a local, he's actually Bandera but Austin calls himself Austin because he was discovered on KUT. And stuff like that. So, and like Joe E Lee, ran into Joe E Lee, I was interviewing for a technical role and I was the interview-er. And so part of it is taking the, taking the candidate out to lunch and meeting them and I'm sitting there and Joe E Lee sits down at a table next to me and I was an absolute rabid fan of his music. And so finally I walked over and I said, this is going to sound really lame, but I absolutely love your music. And he goes, Nah, that's not lame at all man, that's really cool. That's really cool. Thank you. And I said, I (break in audio) sharks. And he's like, I totally remember that. That was down at Green Hall, man. He was nuts. Greenhall. We had to climb in and out of the bathroom window because there's no back door to that stage. It was awesome. It was so funny. Absolutely hilarious. But that was all that was Clay Pit over by UT. So yeah, I love this town because even though it's, it's very much grown up and it's real different than it was 20 years ago. It's still a really good place to be from. You know, it's, it's, everybody knows Austin and a sort of instant acceptance when people find out you're from Texas and then ultimately from Austin it's fun.

Heather:  Absolutely. That's super cool. Well, you know, do you have any. I don't know how you, you have, so like you have so many things, are so amazing and working with clients and stuff do you have any parting thoughts, I guess on people like just dealing with and working with folks, you know?

Matthew:  Man, so I, I guess I have kind of my big three when you're thinking about working with a consultant. One of the first things is don't ask me how much I cost because it's silly, right? So how expensive are you? Oh, wow, that's really expensive. Okay. Well it's the wrong conversation because you need to understand how I can help you and, and you have to be careful of those people who go, oh, I can do everything. So that's why I'm this expensive. I never said that because I know that I can't. That's why I worked with five of the guys that were really good at all the stuff that I sucked at. And, and they love doing that other stuff like business intelligence, not me, you know, I don't, I don't have a brain for that kind of thing. So I did a lot of work around search. I did a lot of work around architecting farms and stuff like that. And, and for someone to call up and say, Oh yeah, we had a consultant in here and he was terrible. So we're looking for another consultant. It says more about you that it was terrible then the consultant who left. Now there are really horrible consultants out there. I get it, but you're in a new relationship. You're on your first date and you're talking about how your last date was such a train wreck. It's not the information I want. Right? It immediately throws this whole relationship into doubt. And, uh, and I think the other thing, and this is, this is one of the tips that I give to young consultants that are thinking about getting into the business and that's, that change happens no matter what the project is, change is going to happen. People are going to swap in and out of a project and you have to be able to be resilient and get around that. But there's a ripple effect to change. And so when you're, when you're thinking about your project, no matter what the project is, don't think three years down the line because the software is going to change in that time. You've got to be thinking in smaller iterations and then plan for that change ripple effect. And so one of the things I always talk to my customers about is the cost of a change. It's really inexpensive before we paint your house to change the color of the paint. Oh, once I'm halfway through painting your house, it's going to be much more expensive. And, and understanding that, that as soon as you think there's a change, let me know, send up a flare. So that I know there's a possible change coming and we can evaluate it and go with it, but if I'm done painting your house and you're ready and I'm ready to take a check from you and you say it's the wrong color, then we have bigger issues. And so you know what, what Sam used to say was clients are never trained to be clients but you're trained to be a technologist so you've got to work with the customers and the customers have to learn to work with you. So I think the biggest tip I have, it comes back to why you and I are such good friends and that's communicate. Just be people, you know, I didn't come in here because I thought I could screw you over from a, from a consulting perspective. That's not why I started this project. But if you think that's the case then then we have bigger issues than just the technology. So, Communicate, communicate, communicate.

New Speaker:   I agree. And I think that that not only applies to a business proposition. But I think that's very astute from life. You know, something comes up, talk about it, right?

Matthew:  One of the things I tell people is that my father was a consultant, he was a business consultant for years and my mother's a marriage family, child counselor and I use her skills in my business more than I use his.

New Speaker:   Empathy is where it's at. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a good place to close out our chit-chat. Oh, thank you so much for being on. It's just lovely to talk to you anyway and catch up with you again and thank you for being on the podcast. I appreciate that.

Matthew:  Well, I love talking with you, Heather. We can do a whole dog one later on. We can do dog mavens. That'll be awesome.

New Speaker:   Dog Mavens. I love that. Okay. We may have to actually like, I'll, I'll hit record on the video so we can have some dog action in here.

Matthew:  That would be really fun.

New Speaker:   See Miss. Thing, so for sure. Well that was our Consultants Maven for sure. With Mr. Matthew McDermott and everybody that's another episode of Mavens Do It Better. Hope you have a great day. Bye.

EPISODE 17: NEW YORK MAVEN JACK GREENHUT

Heather Newman:  So, hello everybody, we're here again with another episode of Mavens Do It Better and I'm sitting here in South Williamsburg, Brooklyn, in New York City at Bia this amazing restaurant where a good friend, bartends John. I call him Sexy John, but that's just me and I'm sitting here with a lovely friend that I play dominoes with sometimes when I'm in town and then I get to see. And do you want me to tell everybody here your name?

Jack Greenhut:  Jack Greenhut.

Heather Newman:  Jack Greenhut. You know, I don't think I actually ever knew your last name.

Jack Greenhut:  I don't know yours.

Heather Newman:  Well it's Newman. So fair enough.

Jack Greenhut:  There you have it.

Heather Newman:  That's great. So, Jack uh, how long have you lived here or where are you from?

Jack Greenhut:  Well, I've been in New York all my life except a year in San Jose. On the block about a dozen years. Well I was homeless on the block for two years. I had a car, I wasn't in the street, I had a car. I met a bunch of lovely people, the owners and patrons and original residents of the neighborhood. Who Are loving and kind and generous and I keep coming back cause I want to see them.

Heather Newman:  That's why I keep coming back here and the food's pretty good too, right?

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah, it's pretty good here. But the owners here, I don't pay for food in this restaurant They gave me a, I don't abuse that.

Heather Newman:  People take care of people, right?

Jack Greenhut:  People still take care of you here. Yeah. Or

Sexy John:        They beat you at dominoes.

Jack Greenhut:  No, they don't, I don't like that.

Heather Newman:  So, you've seen this. So, you've lived here for a while and you've seen lots of change, yeah?

Jack Greenhut:  I never lived in Williamsburg. I had a loft in Dumbo for a long time. Then I was thrown out of that. It was $350 a month.

Heather Newman:  How much again? Wait, say that again. You had a loft in Dumbo that you got kicked out of by the fire department and.

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah. But before that, I came to Dumbo in 77' before the landlord new what he had. I knew what he had, I wrote the lease.

Heather Newman:  Oh, my goodness.

Jack Greenhut:  I had law school, one year. And then we submitted the lease to an attorney, and he tweaked it a little bit and the landlord signed it. Now, it was 10 years with an option to renew for 10 years.

Heather Newman:  Are you kidding?

Jack Greenhut:  And the beginning rent was $350 a month I think, for all the space that I had.

Heather Newman:  That's amazing.

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah, I fucked him good.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, well it's an issue here, isn't it? Rent, rent control, right?

Jack Greenhut:  Well rent control is something else. I mean, rent control and rent stabilization are both issues. Rent control happened after World War II, I think. And uh, it just prevented the landlords from gouging the newly returned veterans I think is why they did that. But there were some units that had been continuously occupied and their rent is as small as mine is now, you know. Rent stabilization prevents the landlord from going to market rate for people who have been in a place a certain amount of years. I think that's correct.

Heather Newman:  So, you've been in New York City how long?

Jack Greenhut:  I'm 70. I've been in the city 69 years. I'm ready to move.

Heather Newman:  You ready to move?

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah, because I'm older, infirm, and poor and that's difficult here, I think. Although I figured it out, I got my transportation, my doctors, my friends, my pharmacy sends me my drugs if I can't go, you know? But I'm tired of the fight. Seems to me there is a lot more fight, fight the cab driver, fight this, fight that, you know? I don't want to do that anymore.

Heather Newman:  Something's kept you here though, for a long time.

Jack Greenhut:  Well, I don't have the money to move. I don't know where I go. Friend of mine said he wanted to go to Arizona. I said, Tommy, you give me five minutes notice and I'm with you. But that's not gonna happen.

Heather Newman:  Arizona's not a bad place.

Jack Greenhut:  Except for its representation.

Heather Newman:  Well, let's be fair.

Jack Greenhut:  Although the warmth is good for me, it's good for my bones.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. When did you start playing dominos?

Jack Greenhut:  About six years ago since this place opened, John the bartender taught me how to play dominos.

Heather Newman:  Oh yeah? You're pretty fierce.

Jack Greenhut:  Why not?

Heather Newman:  I know, it's good. I think I might have won one round.

Jack Greenhut:  You may have. I may have been off my game for half a minute. I keep coming back to this neighborhood. I don't see a lot of the people that I saw years ago. They left, changed jobs or whatever, but I still know all the owners. Yeah, I just texted one of the owners up the block. He's losing a doorman. I'd love to be the doorman there. So, we'll see.

Heather Newman:  There's so many little bars and restaurants and stuff around here.

Jack Greenhut:  On these two blocks there's four bars. All of them have very different qualities and characteristics, but you can drink at all four of them.

Heather Newman:  The grand equivocator.

Jack Greenhut:  which I don't do anymore. I don't drink because I'm afraid of falling.

Heather Newman:  So, you said you went to law school?

Jack Greenhut:  For a year. I couldn't stand it, but I did rather well because I'd studied Philosophy in college,

Heather Newman:  Where'd you go to school?

Jack Greenhut:  City College, Queens City College. And philosophy tries to broaden what it encompasses. Law tries to narrow the question, so if you've ever read a ladder, you'll see all kinds of warning stickers on the ladder. Don't step on the paint tray. Don't step on the top. Don't put your ladder in mud. All of those warnings are results of a lawsuit.

Heather Newman:  You think every warning is probably the result of, like anywhere?

Jack Greenhut:  Product liability. Yeah, sure. a woman got a million out of McDonald's because of the coffee. Come on lady, give me a break.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, we're kinda litigious here in the United States.

Jack Greenhut:  Very litigious. Yes indeed.

Heather Newman:  Did you, you stopped after a year. Is it that you just didn't want to be a lawyer or?

Jack Greenhut:  I didn't like it. I didn't like thinking that way. They teach you a certain way to think, it's not normal. I've had occasion to consult lawyers in the past and I value them because what the law does is keep people off one another's necks and that you have redress. I can appreciate that. It's just, a friend of mines a lawyer and I was sitting with a guy who's a longshoreman. I said, yeah. I pointed to the longshoreman and I said, "Michael, this guy works."

Heather Newman:  What'd he say to that?

Jack Greenhut:  Michael didn't say much. He's a sweetheart though. If I have a question, he'll try to answer it for me.

Heather Newman:  So, you went to college and had a year of law school. Did you have other jobs?

Jack Greenhut:  Oh yeah. For 25 years I did construction. I renovated lofts, tenements, and brownstones, in the city, Manhattan and Brooklyn. Oh, I loved it. I can't do it now, and I miss it a lot.

Heather Newman:  Were you working the machinery, were you a foreman, how did that work out?

Jack Greenhut:  Both.

Heather Newman:  Both, you did it all.

Jack Greenhut:  I was the foreman, I was the owner of the company. I would keep projects on the side for myself. So, if I wasn't doing managerial duties I could go work.

Heather Newman:  Was it commercial stuff or residential? Like any big buildings that I know and see and gaze at?

Jack Greenhut:  Mostly residential. Interior renovations, new walls, staircases stuff like that.

Heather Newman:  What was your favorite thing?

Jack Greenhut:  Electric work. Yeah, I liked it because it was, um, you had to kind of suss things out. Sometimes they had hidden junction boxes. So, you have to figure out, well why isn't this thing responding the way it is? And then you have to find the box. And it's pretty clean work too. Which I liked.

Heather Newman:  My grandfather built my grandparents’ house.

Jack Greenhut:  Oh Wow.

Heather Newman:  He worked in a cement plant his entire life in Michigan.

Jack Greenhut:  And he died of silicosis.

Heather Newman:  Well he might have.

Jack Greenhut:  Almost.

Heather Newman:  But when they went to go redo the house, because he'd done all the wiring himself, they're like there's a blue wire, a green wire, and a yellow wire, we don't know what the hell is connected to what.

Jack Greenhut:  I've seen some of that. It's fun to suss it out though. People think because you work with your hands and your back, you're stupid. First of all, there are no stupid electricians. They're all dead. You count the fingers on a carpenter's hand, and you'll see just how careful he is. So, you gotta use your head. What I used to do, I'd have a problem, I'd think about it until I kept repeating myself. Then I had to do something and then I'd think about it again. So, I called this sort of dialectic between doing and thinking. That served me well.

Heather Newman:  I didn't know you were in construction. I hadn't asked you, I guess, so why would I know?

Jack Greenhut:  I hadn't asked you if you were married for 100 years.

Heather Newman:  Not a hundred, but you know. Something keeps bringing me back to New York.

Jack Greenhut:  Well, it's still, it's extraordinary. What I like about New York is chance. We've met by chance. Uh, I sit sometimes and meet people at the bar by bar. The bar, I gotta say this about the bar though, I really do. A bar is the most democratic institution in the United States. For the price of a Coca-Cola you can sit with anyone and talk all night. That to me is democracy. Not this sham that we have here. It's all self-selected. I got angry at a guy once in six years. Told him to shut his mouth. And that happened recently. I was ashamed of myself. Yeah, because "Hail fellow, well met". All comers welcome. But this guy was too much.

Heather Newman:  No, I think your right. I feel like New York is very welcoming. People say New Yorkers are so.

Jack Greenhut:  I think it's a very friendly, but it used to be, I don't know so much anymore cause I don't get around much, but it used to be a very friendly place.

Heather Newman:  I've found it to be very friendly too. The energy here is different from anyplace else. And you lived in San Jose you said.

Jack Greenhut:  San Jose In 1969. I was in Vista.

Heather Newman:  That was the Summer of love.

Jack Greenhut:  I also hitchhiked across the country. Took six weeks. I think in 68 I was in San Jose in 69 I hitchhiked across country.

Heather Newman:  How was that?

Jack Greenhut:  It was incredible. So, I snapped. I still tell stories about that trip.

Heather Newman:  Did you go by yourself or did you have a pal?

Jack Greenhut:  I had a pal. Richard Lucy, we called him Loose. I've actually tried to look him up, but I haven't paid for the detectives to do that. I don't have the money for that. I would like to talk to him.

Heather Newman:  It's Richard Lucy, maybe we can look him up for you.

Jack Greenhut:  Okay, L-U-C-Y. There's one in Indiana, maybe one in Utah. I got that far without having to pay.

Heather Newman:  Okay, I’ll look him up for you.

Jack Greenhut:  He's about my age. Maybe a year or two older. If he didn't shuffle off this mortal coil.

Heather Newman:  How old were you when you did this?

Jack Greenhut:  Twenty-one.

Heather Newman:  You were twenty-one when you hitchhiked across the country? Wow. Where did you start from?

Jack Greenhut:  George Washington Bridge.

Heather Newman:  George Washington Bridge? Oh, my goodness. Who picked you up first? Do you remember?

Jack Greenhut:  No, I don't. I remember going through Ohio. Lucy and I were hungry. So, he said, you know, find us a dinner or something? She goes it was down the road a piece. That was 45 minutes later. That was our first introduction to kind of rural stuff.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. And being outside of New York for the first time, right?

Jack Greenhut:  No, I was in Chicago for a half a minute. Just to try to visit someone and then I came back.

Heather Newman:  So, did you go from Ohio? I'm from Illinois and the Midwest and I've driven out west, with my parents when I was a kid. Did you go through Denver and all of that? Did you go through Colorado?

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah. We're in Denver, people took us in in Denver, took us in in Albuquerque. They took us in In Kansas City, Missouri. That's a great story. In Kansas City, Missouri we called up to the Society of Friends, the Quakers and said, look, the two of us are travelling and we don't have much money, we could use a place to stay. So, they said, why don't you call up Bert and Lynn Howard. I remember their address and everything. Right. So, we called them, and they said, yeah, come on over the address is 4712 Charlotte Avenue. This happened 50 years ago, I guess almost, yeah, Kansas City, Missouri. We got a lift from 14 people in a VW and two more didn't matter, and they dropped this right in front. Burt and Lynn were really giving people they had two children, Pagan who's three years old I know, and Theo who's a year and a half and Lucy started calling Pagan, Bad Pagan, and then BP and at the end of our two day stay his mother, Lynn, was calling her son BP. That's how cool these people were. They fed us and washed our clothes and took us to the family swimming hole. That's 1969. In 1980. I went to a New Year's Eve party. Now My friends grew up in Kansas City. His parents were at the New Year’s Eve party and knew Burt and Lynn and they were able to tell me where they were and what they were doing.

Heather Newman:  Sure, got an update.

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah. Lynn was a doctor and Burt was a film editor and they had gone back to England. She was English.

Heather Newman:  What was California like at that time?

Jack Greenhut:  We got held up at gunpoint outside Berkeley.

Heather Newman:  You did?

Jack Greenhut:  Oh yeah. Okay. Everybody out. So, we're standing there on the side of the road with our hands up and this big old hand gun in front of our faces. Fortunately, somebody came by and we jumped like gazelles over a barbed wire fence and they took off.

Heather Newman:  Why did you decide to do that? To go on that trip?

Jack Greenhut:  Maybe it's because I lost my girlfriend. That's why I got out to San Jose. I got out to San Jose because we split up and I wanted to get as far away as I could.

Heather Newman:  That's awfully far.

Jack Greenhut:  Like the immigrants right, the Calistoga Wagon. They got to the ocean and said, "Oh, fuck it. That's it then. We're going to settle in California."

Heather Newman:  What we won't do when we have a broken heart.

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah, you get on the road. So, then I came back after a year and Lucy and I, I don't know why, I never asked myself that question. I was moving, I crossed the country about 18 times. Flew, hitched, and drove about five or six times. I used to love to drive man. That bubble at two in the morning.

Heather Newman:  Nothing like it with the radio on.

Jack Greenhut:  No drugs, just

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just go.

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah. Nice feeling.

Heather Newman:  Well that's so cool. What’s your favorite thing about, I don't know, just life in general?

Jack Greenhut:  Well, that's hard.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I know. Not an easy question.

Jack Greenhut:  Well yeah because I'm not reading and I'm not writing. I haven't done that while which I am disappointed in myself. So, coming out here and making common cause with people. It's what I feel compelled to do because I'm not terribly good on my own. You know, I just ruminate and all that shit. So, I come out and people are stimulating or sometimes they are, but at least I'm part of the tribe.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, we all want to feel like we belong, right?

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I think bars sometimes are the places where, you know it's like the tradition of the English pub, you know? All of that sort of thing, right?

Jack Greenhut:  That's where I eat on Thursday afternoons. I eat with a friend of mine, this place is almost modeled after an English pub. Yeah, food is delicious. I know everybody. I don't know all of the patrons, I know some of the patrons. I know the bartender, the owner, the waiter. I like to go where I'm greeted, you know? "Hi Jack, how are you? You want a drink, you want to sit here?" You know that kind of thing, I like that.

Heather Newman:  Did you ever see that, with Cheers, where Norm would come in the bar and they would all be like, did you ever see that?

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah, I never liked that. I don't like canned laughter. I really don't.

Heather Newman:  I went to a taping of a TV show and watched that, and I thought it was so weird.

Jack Greenhut:  Applause.

Heather Newman:  I know. I was like don't tell me to clap. I will not talk about the finger he just held up. I enjoy talking to you so much.

Jack Greenhut:  I enjoyed this too.

Heather Newman:  When I see you, you always have a sparkle in your eye.

Jack Greenhut:  If I wasn't laughing, I'd be crying.

Heather Newman:  Isn't that the truth?

Jack Greenhut:  Life's hard.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it is, it is. There's a lot of, behind the smiling eyes, there's a lot of pain and sorrow and grief, you know?

Jack Greenhut:  Yeah, but I came through the other side. That's the thing. So, I did come through the other side.

Heather Newman:  You're doing well. Every time I see you, you've got the grin. Well everybody, I'm going to sign off with lovely Jack. Any last, hellos for the folks on the line?

Jack Greenhut:  Well, just thank you Heather. Just keep on keeping on.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. Thank you.

Jack Greenhut:  My pleasure.

Heather Newman:  Everybody, that was another Mavens Do It Better podcast here in Williamsburg. In Williamsburg, at Bia with the lovely Jack. Thanks everybody.

EPISODE 16: SOCIAL JUSTICE MAVEN ZOE NICHOLSON

Heather Newman:  Hello everyone, you are here with the Mavens Do It Better podcast and today I am in Los Angeles and we have a great friend and colleague in Long Beach, California. Zoe Nicholson. Zoe, say hi.

Zoe Nicholson:  Hi everybody. So happy to be here.

Heather Newman:  Awesome. So Zoe and I met, oh, it's like it'll be a year in January, uh, at the, Into Action art and social justice event here in Los Angeles in China Town. And uh, I met her standing in front of a piece of art and she tapped me on the shoulder and the rest is kind of history. Zoe, maybe talk about the piece of art that you were standing in front of and everybody's Zoe is, she's amazing. She's been an activist and a teacher and a lecturer and an actor and active in politics and everything for many, many years. So she's, she's a maven of many, many things and she's become very dear to me and teaching me about a lot of wonderful things in the world that I didn't know about and needed to be educated on. So, I'm thrilled to have her on the show today. So Zoe, tell us about that piece of art that led us to meet.

Zoe Nicholson:  Well, I'm even going to back you up one event before that. I seem to have the most amazing luck asking people to take my photograph when I'm at a Yosi Sergant event. Very first one I went to so many years ago before marriage equality was the law of the land, there was a show called Manifest Love and I thought there was just some gentlemen working the shop, the gift shop, and I said, "Will you come out here and take a picture of me? I really like this logo." And then when I got home I found out it was the curator of, the producer of the entire show. I had no idea. So when I went over to you and I said, you know, this means this banner means something to me "Forward into light. Forward out of darkness". It's an old Quaker hymn that was used a great deal in the first wave of, of, uh, the American women's movement. There it was, although it was sort of funny because it was pink and rather gaudy, very 2018, 2017, but I just had to have my picture in front of it and look who I went over and asked to take my picture. And then we spoke for a moment and all of a sudden you call these people over and we're, you know, sort of having this round table right in the middle of a, an amazing exhibition. So, uh, yes, it was about Inez Milholland. The woman who was on a white horse, everybody knows there was a woman on a white horse at the head of the, uh, the parade in 1913 going up Pennsylvania Avenue. But interesting, I look at the date today and we're coming up right now on the anniversary of Inez's death and she died right here in Los Angeles, the Samaritan Hospital in 1916 in November.

Heather Newman:  Wow, yeah, no, I, that is one of the wonderful things that you've taught me a lot about, about, Inez and Alice Paul and I, and you know, when I met Zoe she had said, we talked about, I took a photo and she said, do you know what this is? And I, and I said no. And so, I'm like, I always think that when I don't know, something, you know, and uh, and she was like, do you know who Alice Paul is? And I said No. And um, it really made me look at, okay, you know, being a woman in the world and wanting to really understand our history in the United States more of, you know, I went to the Women's March two years ago and you know, and you were like, well that wasn't the first one. And I was like, tell me more about that as well, you know, and I think you and I ended up talking for about three hours that day.

Zoe Nicholson:  It was astounding. I surrendered.

Heather Newman:  I was like I got you and I'm not letting you go. Um, and it was great because Eleuthera my dear friend who brought me in, you got to meet Eleuthera and then we talked with Gina Belafonte and a bunch of other folks and Yosi, that was super cool. So yeah, so you know, with and I know that, um, you're an Alice Paul scholar as well. Will you talk about Alice Paul and what it means to be a scholar of her work and all of that as well?

Zoe Nicholson:  Well, I'm going to tell you though, one of the things that might ignite interest even, moreover than imaginable, just think that the head of the largest Suffrage organization, her name was Carrie Chapman Catt, she wanted to be friends with President Wilson. President Wilson probably is the second worst president we've ever had. You can guess who the first is. And she wanted to have tea at the White House and get along with the party and everybody be lovely. And they had actually, they used hankies, their agendas and their calls to action were printed on hankies and they were a lovely group of rather demure ladies. In 1909, a ship landed in New Jersey with the, with the New Jersey women onboard, a Quaker named Alice Paul, and she had served time. She had been taught and she had been a part of Mrs. Pankhurst rise for suffrage in Great Britain.

Heather Newman:  Right, okay.

Zoe Nicholson:  And a little-known fact that in July of 2009, she was actually in class with Mrs. Pankhurst in Royal Albert Hall in London and Mrs. Pankhurst was about to launch the beginning of real violence, the beginning of burning buildings and not caring about who was in the way. And two people got up and walked out and never went back. One of them is the Quaker woman from New Jersey, Alice Paul. The other one is a young barrister who was there studying at Oxford. Who's name is Mohandas Gandhi.

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Zoe Nicholson:  And they were in the same class. They've written about it, each of them independently. I have to tell you when I find things like this my head explodes.

Heather Newman:  Well, you just gave me goosebumps.

Zoe Nicholson:  It's so exciting. And of course we know that barrister Gandhi went on to practice the law in South Africa and he did not start practicing nonviolent direct action until 10 years after Alice Paul. I also can tell you that Gandhi's longest fast was not as long as the fasting done by Alice Paul, and almost nobody knows. Now I'm going to tell you something else to blow your mind about Alice Paul. Up until 1913, Pennsylvania Avenue was thought to be a street of office buildings. The first person to ever march, ever, on Pennsylvania Avenue to go to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to protest, to demonstrate, to ask the President for something was Alice Paul. Nobody had ever done it before. So every time you see a march going up to the White House now, you might think, oh, that's interesting. What are they for? Climate change, there for veterans day, why they there? I think a woman started that, nobody knows it. Now I'm going to circle back and tell you why nobody knows it because Mrs. Catt actually paid a woman, whose name was Ida Harper, to redact Alice out of the six volume set of the History of Women's Suffrage. Mrs. Catt was so unhappy, so embarrassed by Alice, so upset that it was the invigoration of the march for suffrage of Alice Paul. She fought against it. She wrote Alice notes that said, I'm so sorry. She wrote President Wilson notes that Ms. Paula is wrong. I'm so sorry. This is not how American women feel. But of course it was the extreme agitation, the high risk activism, the demonstration, serving time in prison, fasting, relentless, and finally burning the President in effigy in 1918 that, um, you know, the President went across the road to Congress and said, I am now supporting suffrage. I'm asking you to go ahead and pass this out to the states. And um, every day I think about that, that there are people who spent their lives doing something and another person goes back with whiteout, a gallon of whiteout, and, and, and redacts them right out of history. It happens all the time and it's maddening to a researcher, just maddening.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I suppose it makes it difficult to find, you know, I know you, you have collected a lot of information about Alice, but I think it obviously it makes it hard to find the truth or what happened or all of that, that would be in an archive or that would be somewhere that you could get your hands on. Right?

Zoe Nicholson:  It's in a box, it's in a trunk. But I, and I can tell you the best things I've ever found are either in articles, or, I am fortunate that being 70, I actually know people who worked for her. So, Was able to sit here at my desk and call people. And I'll tell you the first time I went to her house at 144 Constitution Avenue, which is now a national park site for women's suffrage. the first time I went there years ago, I knocked on the door and a woman opened the door. I didn't know her, she didn't know me and she said, "Why are you here?" And I said, "Well, I'm in love with Alice Paul and I want to see the house." And, uh, this woman said, well, I'm going to cry, she said, "I was her intern. I slept in this house and I would like to give you a tour myself." And uh, I have a YouTube of this. I'd never, never used a Flip camera before. This is, oh, I didn't know 10 years ago, 9 years ago. I didn't know that they recorded sound. So I'm holding it and I'm taking a picture, a sweeping video of Alice's bedroom, the four poster bed and the desk where she wrote and, and I'm crying.

Heather Newman:  Oh, so you can hear you weeping on it too?

Zoe Nicholson:  Yes, instead of me narrating because I didn't know it was gonna catch audio, it's just me blubbering. That was my first event and I've been there many times and they've been very good to me. They've given me full access to the library there. I think probably one of the greatest moments of my life was walking into Alice's library and finding my book. And when I found my book in that library, I mean, that's a moment.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. For sure. Is it the, is it, uh, the one about heart?

Zoe Nicholson:  The Hungry Heart, yeah, my summer of 1982. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, that book, um, everyone details, Zoe and, is it seven, six or seven other women?

Zoe Nicholson:  Seven.

Heather Newman:  Seven other women who fasted at the State of Illinois Congress, uh, to see if we could get the Equal Rights Amendment passed in that state, which if you've been paying attention, we know that that happened this year, which is a big deal. I know from you and I talking about it, what an event that was for you having, had that experience with those women there. Will you talk about sort of what the passing of that has meant to you?

Zoe Nicholson:  Oh, it, um, well it failed miserably. it was June 27th, 1982. And Illinois did not vote to pass the amendment. An amendment goes out to the states and a super majority has to pass it in this case 38 and it failed and that was pretty much it. And the deadline was July 1st, but a bit of history almost no one knows is that of all of the amendments, only this one had a deadline.

Heather Newman:  Every amendment ever?

Zoe Nicholson:  Well, one other one did, the rest were open ended. They could take as long as they liked. So now I'm going to tell you one of my favorite stores about Alice. on the phone I was talking to a woman who, uh, was part of, was in the hearings. She was a witness in the hearings for the ERA in 1971. And I'm on the phone with her and, and I'm saying, "Why did they ask you?" She said, "I don't really know. I was a college girl and we were college girls and they invited us to give testimony about the importance of being in the constitution." But when they finally voted yes, uh, we ran to Alice's house because Alice's house was very close to the United States Congress and the judiciary committee, just like the one we just saw with the hearings with Kavanaugh, the Judiciary Committee voted to send it up for vote and send it out to the states. So they ran to tell Alice and Alice had only one question, "Was there a deadline?" And uh, she said yes, there was and Alice Paul in 1971 said, "It will never pass." Because they know the only thing they have to do is choke that last state by the deadline. And if there was no deadline, it was open ended, it would be a collection. We could go state to state as, as colors change. We're all about that now, aren't we? Watching colors change in states. And Alice knew it would make it easily if there was no deadline. But there was. And when I asked, I was talking to a woman named Bernice Sandler, the mother actually who's the mother of Title IX. I asked her, so why didn't they call on Alice Paul? Why wasn't Alice giving testimony? She wrote it in 1923. Why didn't they invite her? She was just a few blocks away. And Dr. Sandler started to cry, audibly, we're on the phone and she said, "Zoe, because we just thought she was an old lady in a wheel chair." Congress just thought she was an old lady, you know, she was at that time 86. And, uh, they never thought to invite the author of the Equal Rights Amendment to Congress to talk about it. So, you know, that's something you can't learn in a book. That's something you learn on the phone talking to somebody that, that knew her, that was part of her life that walked with her and uh, or sat in her house or, or slept in her house. So I've been really fortunate to be at that between age. She was born in 1885 and I was born in 1948. So I still, there are still some women alive who knew her, who talked to her, who were part of her life. And I've been able to know that she was relentless. And um, I'm gonna skip to the end of story because it's so fabulous. Her 92nd birthday was coming up. She was in a Quaker retirement home in Pennsylvania. And uh, she got word that Betty Ford was going to call her on her birthday and she, she's, she was worried, the story goes, I have photographs of this actually. The story goes that she told the caretakers, now you got to wheel my chair over so I can be sure that the pay phone I can reach the receiver from my chair. And they tested it and she got up that morning. They did her hair. And they did her lipstick and she has this quilt over her legs that says ERA on it and the phone rings and Mrs. Ford says, "Happy Birthday Alice!" And Alice says, "Thank you so much, but do you think you can ask your husband about the Equal Rights Amendment?" And uh, it's just astounding. You know, she left us about six months after that, but she never stopped ever. There was not a day, she didn't retire. She didn't go home. She didn't say we got the vote everybody let's lay back and take it easy. She never gave up. Being 70, you know, the idea that I have another 22 years of work inside of me. That's interesting.

Heather Newman:  Happy Birthday by the way. I know I knew that, but everyone else. Yeah, Zoe just turned 70 and what I. So many things I love about you, but I think it is being someone, I was born in 1971, so like, that's, you know, when you say those numbers to me, I think about that and I think about your passion and what drives you and I, it's really inspiring to watch what you do in the world and be a part of it. And to witness and to help amplify that because I think it's really important. So yeah. And Alice, you know, fist in the air with quilts on knees, you know.

Zoe Nicholson:  Oh fantastic. Just fantastic, yes.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. Um, we're gonna talk to Zoe over time, over bits and podcasts and so there is, we could be on the phone and podcasting for like 12 hours with her easily if not 120. but one of the things I also wanted to have you talk about a little bit is you've had this really kind of major thing happen recently that you called me and you're like, "I have to tell you something!" And I was like, "What?", and really exciting and, you know, there's a lot going on these days because of our political climate. Uh, the Women's Movement, the Me Too Movement, the Black Lives Matter, all of these things and you know, we just had our midterm elections and all of that and you know, we're looking towards the 100 year anniversary of the 19th amendment and um, lots of motion around that in the world with different organizations and things happening because of that, leading to that August 2020 date. And um, I wanted you to share with everybody because I think I want people to tune in to what's happening and something beautiful that's happening with you. That is, I think so well deserved and about darn time. Was going to swear. But anyway, um, will you tell everybody a little bit about that?

Zoe Nicholson:  Sure, you know, uh, I, I'm really, really inventive. I'll try anything. I mean, it's, it's amazing, if you had an hour, we could just talk about all the things I've tried that never went anywhere. I remember sending a publisher, a floppy disk that I made on my Apple IIc, oh yeah, that would take a kid's name and it would place it in a storybook. So if your kid's name was Monica, you know, the story book will come out of the dot matrix printer with Monica in it. And the letter I got back said, I hope nothing like this ever happened. Books are books and they shouldn't be tampered with. And I mean, yeah, I was being chastised for this rather what we think of now, a small idea at the time it was outrageous. So about 11 months ago, 10 months ago, I saw a little notice on Instagram to apply for the possibility of meeting somebody from your past that you had been looking for, that actually had been in historical event that you had shared. So, I filled it out and honestly, I forgot all about it. Honestly, six weeks later I got invited to skype with the film producer, director, editor, three different people and they were all sitting in front of the skype machine and I, they interviewed me for about 90 minutes and said thank you very much. And that was that. And I didn't know what was going to happen. Well then in March I got an official email telling me that I had been selected to be one of the 12 people in this season's show "We'll Meet Again" with Ann Curry. And uh, so, uh, that was in March. And then April, May, everyday there would be more requests. More I need a photograph of this, I need a photograph of that. Would you answer these questions? What did you do then? We need a resume. Where did you go to school? It was nonstop and, and I was sworn to secrecy, so I'm not, you know, I like to tell people everything.

Heather Newman:  Well, of course, but I know you can't and I'm not asking for that. Of course.

Zoe Nicholson:  Even then I couldn't even tell people I was chosen. Right.? So, uh, then in June I got the scariest thing. I had to sign a piece of paper that said I would be available for 14 days with no interruptions, which means no pets, no children, no going to market, no nothing, 14 days, nothing else. And uh, I'm so fortunate that I have life that allows such a thing. And I said yes. And then they gave me a date of when they were going to show up and uh, then they would text me, this is really astounding, they would text me at night and tell me where I was going the next day.

Heather Newman:  Wow. That's set on the fly. Yeah.

Zoe Nicholson:  And I'm not that spontaneous of a person. So, uh, anyway, um, yeah, the first thing, I didn't meet them until Springfield, Illinois and they flew me to Springfield and on August 31st I left Long Beach and flew to Springfield and for the very first time I walked into the Rotunda of the Springfield House, stood where I had been, you know, for 40 days with Phyllis Schlafly and, and NOW, and all of them, mayhem, Betty Ford, uh, was there all the mayhem of the Equal Rights Amendment. And uh, so they shot for 14 days. And lo and behold, I, I don't, you know, I suppose it means something. I don't know what it means, but my episode is the finale. Two ladies, uh, are being featured myself and the woman who is the first woman I believe, who began as a stewardess and ended up actually being a pilot of a jetliner. And uh, so they interweave two stories and the final one airs on January, Tuesday, January 8th, and it's, We'll Meet Again with Ann Curry. And this one particular show is about women. And uh, just because I'm obsessive, I know you'll understand everybody who's listening to me, you know why I am saying this, that it's just three days before Alice Paul's birthday. Her birthday is January 11th.

Heather Newman:  Oh, okay. Excellent timing. And you know, we've got, there's lots of things in January happening around Women's Marches and Women's Movements and all of that too. So, I think

Zoe Nicholson:  Yes, the House will sit down.

Heather Newman:  Yes, poignant.

Zoe Nicholson:  His penis will be snipped, and things will happen. Yay.

Heather Newman:  Absolutely. So yeah, so everyone, Zoe and I've been talking a long time and we, we often meet and go walk on the beach and talk about things and she's been so generous with her time with me and her beautiful history with me. And um, I really wanted to bring her onto the show and also invite her on more so that we can get more of her amazing work in the world that she's done for 70 years. And since she first drew breath, cause I know

Zoe Nicholson:  I would totally agree. I was a rebel at that moment.

Heather Newman:  Certainly, yes. So, from the stories I've heard. So, um, I think for today we're gonna I want to close out and say thank you and invite everyone to keep an eye on the podcast for more with Zoe more maybe more tea with Zoe. And, and, and talk about that a little bit too before we, before we end

Zoe Nicholson:  Well, tea is code for revolution. If you know your American history, you know that every revolution we had centered around tea. It's been really integral to all of us seeking liberation from whatever country at whatever time. For some reason tea comes into play. It must be a medicinal plant. The indigenous people could probably explain that to us.

Heather Newman:  Sure. Yeah. So, one of the things, Zoe does a myriad of different things, but she has this beautiful one woman show that's called Tea with Alice and Me and that is Alice Paul, which I got to see last year down in Long Beach and um, it's something that she does and she, she's brilliant. I mean you can hear her. She's brilliant at lecturing and history and stuff. And so, one of the things that she does is that one woman show. So those of you who listen to me, I know that I'm a theater major and all of that, that, you know, coming around in this year, you know, Tea with Alice and Me could be a really great thing to bring into a university or college or when you know, your groups that are interested in women's history and US history and all of that stuff. And so that's, you can check all that stuff out online at her site, which is ZoeNicholson.com. And um, yeah, and we're going to talk more about all of these fun things with her, um, as we go along on the Mavens Do It Better podcast. So, and be sure we're going to, I want to do some like viewing parties on January eighth to check out this awesome event that's going to happen and I'm so excited for you for that and for so many things. But, um, I just wanted to say thank you for being a really amazing force in my life and a friend and saying yes to this and I'm excited to hear more from you on lots of things so

Zoe Nicholson:  Welcome. Let's rock!

Heather Newman:  Okay, let's rock it.

Zoe Nicholson:  Times a wasting.

Heather Newman:  Times a wasting for sure. All right everyone. That is the latest episode of Mavens Do It Better. Have a lovely day and keep on keeping on. Cheers.

EPISODE 15: MUSIC MAVEN DJ JOHNNY “JUICE” ROSADO

Heather Newman:  Hey everyone, it's Heather Newman back here with another Mavens Do It Better podcast and I'm sitting here today in Los Angeles with a dear friend Johnny Juice Rosado, DJ Johnny Juice Rosado.

Johnny Juice:  That's right.

Heather Newman:  And uh, we are chilling today and hanging out and catching up and he's in town. So, I thought let's do a little podcast together. Um, we've known each other now for a really long time. Met at NAMM years ago because of Microsoft.

Johnny Juice:  That's right.

Heather Newman:  Because I had a job with Cakewalk doing their booth and Johnny was one of the speakers. And what were you speaking on there? Do you remember?

Johnny Juice:  I did a project that was recorded in sonar for their flagship software and I was explaining how the recording process and the mixing process was completed totally within sonar. And I did this just huge type of presentation with the song and it was a, it was a Public Enemy song with a live band as well. And I think we were doing a cover of a James Brown song.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnny Juice:  Think it was “Soul Power”.

Heather Newman:  “Soul Power”. Yeah, I remember that. Absolutely. And what was cool about that event, it was just, it was neat because like all the people that worked on it, we've all remained friends and sort of hung with each other, know each other and you know, a lot of those cats before.

Johnny Juice:  That's right. Yeah.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. You know, those folks. So, I got introduced to sorta everybody then Carl and Brandon and all of those folks, and now see them. I just saw Carl and Brandon at a Foo Fighters thing couple of weeks ago and I see Carl all over cause he goes to the music events here like I do.

Johnny Juice:  Right, he's on the west coast now.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, he's pretty fun. So, you mentioned Public Enemy. You want to tell everybody your involvement there?

Johnny Juice:  Sure. Never heard of them. I've been involved with Public Enemy since the very first album. Uh, I came on board while they were at Spectrum City before they became Public Enemy and they were a radio, a radio troupe as well as a live DJ kind of crew. So, they would go around and do events and they would throw parties, that's what they were doing. And they did radio, college radio and they were really trying to do radio. That was their real thing and the plan was to find rappers and DJs and make groups and manage them. That was their whole plan. Public Enemy was a means to an end. They were going to. They decided to make a group off of a song they did they called “Public Enemy No. 1”, which was done in 83 and in 86 after being harassed by Rick Rubin they finally decided, okay fine, we'll sign with you. Seriously. It was just like that Chuck didn't want to get signed. He was supposed to be signed as Chucky D, but he didn't want to do that. He promised Flav's, mom he'd take care of him. So, he says, "I won't sign unless you signed Flav". Now Flavor wasn't a rapper per se. So, Russell Simmons especially was like, “Why am I going to sign a hype man? You know, he could go on stage with you, but I'm not going to sign him too”. Chuck says, "Well, I'm not doing it unless you sign him". So, when he did that, it couldn't be Chuck D anymore, or Chucky D as he was called, so they decided to change the name to Public Enemy. Simultaneously while they were looking for rappers and DJs, they had a contest to pick these guys. I won the DJ portion of the contest. Two of the guys that were in my crew at the time that went up there to participate in the contest was a rapper name KBMC and the other one was MC Chill-o-ski. Chill-o-ski decided not to come to the contest because he was in Brooklyn visiting his pops. Those rappers are now known as Charlie Brown and Busta Rhymes on Leaders of the New School. We was a group together before this. So, I won the contest. I got down with their crew and eventually, Chuck brings me back and forth home because I didn't have a car, he asked me if I would like to scratch on some of the records. He played a tape in his Cougar.

Heather Newman:  Oh, Cougar the car.

Johnny Juice:  So, he played the tape and the tape ended up being, what would later be "Yo! Bum Rush the Show".

Heather Newman:  Wow.

Johnny Juice:  So I went and scratched on that and that was the beginning of my involvement with Public Enemy and I became a member of the Bomb Squad and the rest is history. And I'm still obviously real tight with Chuck and with Charlie Brown and Buster and Dinco because I did scratching on their first album as well, and I've produced a bunch of stuff for all of them. So actually, there's a new Leaders of the New School album coming out soon.

Heather Newman:  Yeah? new stuff.

Johnny Juice:  Yes, New stuff.

Heather Newman:  That's exciting. Yeah. And thank you for helping me connect with Chuck D for the IntoAction when he came and did the social justice panel with us here in LA in January and he was so lovely, and it was really cool to meet him. So, I really enjoyed that. And you, like you travel as much as I do. I know. And you do a lot of teaching and lecturing and stuff. Will you tell folks about that because I think it's super cool that you're doing it? You know, you do everything. I mean, you got your hands on the turntable, you're making music, you're producing people, you’re teaching. So, tell folks about that portion of what you do.

Johnny Juice:  Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that, that we've tried to do, and I'm from the Bronx originally before I moved to Long Island with Chuck and them, is that we've seen the youth succumb to all the dangers and the vices that the city has. So, we always tried to give back and try to make sure that the children are given more opportunities, better opportunities or some knowledge to help them navigate that type of environment. So, as a member of the Bronx Boys, one of the first b-boy crews ever in hip-hop. Started in 74' as a graffiti crew. 75' as a b-boy crew. I'm the vice president, global vice president, 55 chapters worldwide. We strive to help the children, you know, become better people through the arts that we've learned growing up, which became eventually hip-hop. Now there's another side of the fence. The other side is academia. Now, those people, a lot of times were fortunate to not have grown up in the areas that some of us have, but they still want to understand, and they want to get a glimpse or to really fully comprehend why and what, when it comes to hip-hop, not just the commercial aspect of somebody rapping. So, I have three lectures that I do. I travel, I just came, I was in Hawaii recently at the University of Hawaii Manoa, and lectures range from theoretical and philosophical to technical. Starting on the technical portion or the cultural portion, there's Starting from Scratch, which is one of my lectures where I explain how the hip-hop DJ, or the turntablist, became the turntablist, which is different than a DJ. DJ plays records. A turntablist manipulates records like an instrument. And Starting from Scratch is a lecture and a performance together. So not only do you hear the lecture, I bring my equipment and you get, I get to show you how the scratchers evolved, from what they were to what they are now.

Heather Newman:  Behold the Purple Crayon. Right. Did you see the Get Down?

Johnny Juice:  Yes.

Heather Newman:  Did you like it?

Johnny Juice:  Yeah. Thought it was cool. A good friend of mine Rahiem from the Furious Five, also in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, was one of the consultants on that as well as Flash. And there's a reason why it's called the Get Down because that's the part of the record, the break that was spun so the b-boys could rock to it. They called it the Get Down, eventually was called the break and then the break boys would dance to it and the break boys shortened to b-boys. Or the Bronx Boys. So yeah, I love the show. You know, people kind of pandered saying it wasn't 100 percent accurate, but it wasn't a biography, or it wasn't,

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it was a flavor of what was the time, right?

Johnny Juice:  It was based on, but it wasn't trying to be 100 percent historically accurate.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. That's cool that you show, you talk about it and then you show everybody too. I mean, I think I took some Scratch Academy classes after we met here in Los Angeles with that crew because it was, I was like this is fun.

Johnny Juice:  It is, it's cool. And if the more you get into the more you realize you can do drum rudiments on the turntables, if you know how to. I mean, I do. I actually notate my scratches in percussion notation. So, I mean, when I'm working with my good friend Swiss Kriss, Grammy Award winning drummer for John Legend or formerly from John Legend, and he does his own things now, phenomenal drummer. So, you know, we did our own lecture together as well. It's called The Art of Recycling, which I do on my own now, but it's, I call Run It: The Art of Hip-Hop Production where I explain how there's four or five eras of hip-hop production that are constantly being recycled and nothing has changed really.

Heather Newman:  What are we in right now?

Johnny Juice:  We are in basically a third iteration of the 808 phase of hip-hop production or the Marley Marl era where

Heather Newman:  Is that one, two, or three or four?

Johnny Juice:  That would probably be two.

Heather Newman:  Be two.

Johnny Juice:  Right, the first one would be the Sugar Hill Gang era, which is, or the live band era where live bands would play, replay breaks and then rappers would rhyme over them. Second era was like very early drum, thrown 808, DMX, the Linn Drum, and then possibly a little scratch stab over it. Then eventually the scratch stabs became scratching longer phrases of music. Right now, it's the 808 phase all over again, except instead of stabbing, you know, throwing us a scratch stab or scratching a musical phrase, they just use synthesizers. So, it's Kinda like a hybrid of the Marley Marl era and the New Jack Swing era where Teddy Riley mixed hip-hop drums with a lot of RNB. So, these guys are mixing basically the 808 drums that we already used back in the eighties with a lot of the synthesizer sounds that came out like in the mid to late nineties.

Heather Newman:  Everything kind of evolves, but then adds two, rolls over again.

Johnny Juice:  It always does that. I mean I remember, you know, there's the record Dollar Bill by my homeboy, super rhymes himself, Jimmy Spicer "Dollar Bill Y'All" - dollar bill y'all. Then it was sampled and done over again in the two thousands. And you know, and that happens sometimes you never know. "Cold Gettin' Dumb" was done by Just-Ice in the eighties and was sampled and redone in the nineties, you know, sometimes you don't even realize that that's an actual old rap record. Milk and Gizmo, the Audio 2 did "Top Billin'" and then it was sampled by 50 Cent for "I Get Money", you know, so the thing it's always, you know, it's always recycled and every once in a while, you get something real fresh. But you know, that's one of the lectures and in the last lecture I have is on the Tao of hip-hop, the way of hip-hop. Keeping it ethereal. It's like keeping it real, ethereal, because it's not really tangible because I argue that hip-hop is not necessarily a culture, but more so the process.

Heather Newman:  Why is that?

Johnny Juice:  Because hip-hop is different for everyone. Everybody claims hip-hop is this, that we say hip-hop is really the four elements, you know, the five elements. Four elements being, you know, emceeing, deejaying, b-boying, aerosol art or graffiti. And then the fifth element is knowledge of self. So that's what it's supposed to be. But I don't really prescribe to that because back in the seventies when there was a park jam, everybody in that park jam that went and partied, out of all of those people, very few of them practiced any of those elements. There were a few b-boys in the crowd. There was even fewer DJs and DJ crews and MCS and then the graffiti writers weren't at the jams at all because they were at the yard, you know, writing on trains. So, what were most of the people doing there? Just dancing.

Heather Newman:  Dancing their asses of.

Johnny Juice:  Right. They weren't break dancing as they called it later. They weren't b-boying or rocking or any of that, but they were hip-hop. So, if they weren't any of the elements, but they were what mostly comprised of the hip-hop scene, then what were they? So, I can't say that hip-hop is an element-based thing. What I say is that hip-hop is a process. So in other words, it's like, and, and I have a theory, I call it the Diffractive Prism Theory of Hip-Hop where, like a prism, when you shine light through it, it breaks into a whole bunch of different colors and hip-hop is your internal prism and you filter your life experiences through that prism and whatever comes out on the other side is what comes out. But the product is not hip-hop. The process of you filtering it is.

Heather Newman:  I love that.

Johnny Juice:  So, if you take a fedora hat, right? And you put it on an old dude, it's just a fedora hat on an old dude, but you put it on Run DMC and all of a sudden, it's hip-hop. Adidas has been around forever, but you throw it on a pair of Run, you know, Run DMC throws on a pair of Adidas, they're hip-hop. Give me two Billy Squier records they're rock records, but when I am manipulating them, it's hip-hop. The second I stop they're just two rock records again.

Heather Newman:  "Everybody Wants You".

Johnny Juice:  Right.

Heather Newman:  I love that song.

Johnny Juice:  I love that song too.

Heather Newman:  I had that as a ring tone for a long time.

Johnny Juice:  Stroke me, stroke me. You know when it comes to that, you know that dynamic, I feel that hip-hop is not a product because if that's the case, you can take someone like Brittany Spears and she could rap on a record and even scratch on it. Does that make it hip-hop? And somebody can say no. I'm like, well then what? Why? They would say the intent, but you didn't say that. You said hip-hop is the elements. She's practicing the elements, so why is that not considered hip-hop? Because people will say that the intent is not there, but you didn't say that when you defined hip-hop as the culture, did you? So, there's a lot of people that got into hip-hop that made great rap music because rap music is not hip-hop. Hip-hop is a part of rap, rap is a part of hip-hop as a whole. So, if you're going to say that, then how can you tell? How can you tell what anyone's intent was one? Two, some of these cats that were real dope actually got into it only for money. So, you're saying that's not hip-hop? Because some of them guys made some classic records. So, at what point do you determine what real hip-hop is, what it really isn't? So again, you're basing it on the product, or the output.

Heather Newman:  And not the process of the creation of it and the, say the elements that may happen to be a part of it. Maybe there's two or three or four or maybe just one or whatever.

Johnny Juice:  There's a lot of cats that say, "Yo, I'm hip-hop". But they never really b-boyed. They were never rappers. I mean they might've messed around and rapped a little here and there. But they're not really Rappers, they're not DJs, they're not MCS, they don't do any graffiti. So how do, how do you determine that you’re hip-hop? And they and they determine it based on their intent on what they feel. So, if that's the case then it's based on your filter of events that have occurred in your life. You filter things in a certain way and that filtering process is what makes you hip-hop. So, if that's the case, Hip-hop isn't the product, it isn't the end result, Hip-hop is the actual physical process.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I like that. Um, we were talking about, so you've worked with Prince, the dear departed, amazing, wonderful Prince. And can you talk about working with him a little bit?

Johnny Juice:  Yeah. Prince is a genius. He was a genius. There's really not much you can say about that other than that. But the dude, you know, we had to do a recording and, it was a very limited interaction, so it wasn't like I did a whole song with him. It was really about someone else that actually had recorded vocals for Prince happened to be there and record it. But all the stories are true. He offered to play basketball. There was no, there was no pancakes offered. Guy is obviously extremely talented and I think that there's a side of him that even he wishes people could see, but he doesn't know how to present it. I talk with Ms. Mavis Staples, who I also recorded with, from the Staples Singers and she and her sister Yvonne, who passed away, you know, recently, fairly recently, we were talking about that and she said when she first met Prince it was right at a show he did, they were flown in. Prince said I want them to come to the show and just flew them in. And they met Prince there on the side of the stage and Prince came off the stage and Yvonne was telling me, Yvonne Staples, that he didn't get any acknowledgement from any of the people in his staff. Like, you know, usually you get off stage. "That was dope! That was great!" Nothing, it's like, people are scared to say anything to him. So, he walked up to the back, right to the side of the stage and Yvonne was there and she looked at him, she gave him a hug and he started crying. And it's like, just like every other artist, we, we wish for people to understand.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. We all need people to appreciate the things we do, right? No matter who you are and how famous or whatever, you know, like, "That was cool. Thank you". Right? Yeah.

Johnny Juice:  But the thing is, you know, sometimes it's like, I don't know Prince well enough to save him. Maybe they, maybe those people in his staff had said before, "That was great!" And he's like, "I know." You know what? Maybe that's what he said and they're like I guess I'm not gonna say that again. I have no idea. But, you know, and I ended up becoming good friends with Cat Glover, his dancer for many years and his confidant, a very good friend of his and she has given me insight into Prince's life that I didn't have at one point. And at one point I was supposed to actually redo Alphabet Street with her. She was actually on the original record with him. We got blessings from Prince to redo it. But we never got a chance to do it. And Prince passed away. And then Cat was inconsolable, so

Heather Newman:  Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah. There is a documentary I watched. Um, that was sort of, it was leading up to him passing, that was, it was really heartfelt and really sort of showing sort of the people that lived close to Paisley Park and what he did with them and all of that. And so much of that stuff you just didn't know. You know?

Johnny Juice:  Yeah, it's real sad.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. It's tough. And you know, with your, I know, you know, working with him and you, we could sit here for, I dunno, probably two days and have you list everybody you've worked with because you've worked with everybody and their Mama and um,

Johnny Juice:  I like working with their mothers better.

Heather Newman:  Hey Mamí.

Johnny Juice:  What's up Mamí? Oh yeah, Mamí. Que tú quieres?

Heather Newman:  I was just visiting your homeland. I was just in Puerto Rico.

Johnny Juice:  Puerto Rico!

Heather Newman:  I know we were just talking about that and I know that, you know, your family, you've had, you have family and back and forth down there. And you worked on an album to help support the relief efforts. 

Johnny Juice:  Yes, I hooked up with a friend of mine, Taína Asili, and Taína sang in multiple iterations of different crews, including a group that I worked with called Ricanstruction. They were a Puerto Rican punk group and the lead rapper, singer from Ricanstruction was Not4Prophet. Um, he actually asked me to record with him, so we made an album under the name X-Vandals. So Taína sang on that. Years later I met her because I was living in upstate New York. And I'm like, "What are you doing up here?" She was like, "I live here. What are you doing up here?" I'm like, "I live here!" So, it was like, wow. And one day her conguero, the guy that plays the congas for her couldn't show up for a gig. So, she called me she's like, I know this is probably not your level of stuff anymore, but you know, I know we can't pay you as much. I'm like, just ask me what you want to ask me. She goes, you know, my Conga player can't make it. Can you? Can you come to a gig? I'm like, of course, you know, so I came out, I played for her, so then I became a backup Conga player. So, one day, we had a terrible accident, a terrible event, the hurricane that hit Puerto Rico that devastated the island. So, she said, you know, I really feel strongly that we should put together an album. So, what she did, she contacted multiple artists to submit music. And then she was going to put on Sofrito, which is a song about her grandmother and Sofrito is this concoction we make that kind of goes on everything we cook so, and, but that's like kind of like the lifeblood of us. The Sofrito, right? So, she wanted a remixed version. So, I did a remix for that and um, and we raised money and it went to some grassroots organizations to help people on the island, of course, because that's how, that's our home.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, absolutely. And you have, and I loved it so much and it's been fun talking to you about it, like just being there too, you know, and talking about food and everything else. You and I love the foods.

Johnny Juice:  I'm a foodie.

Heather Newman:  The mofongo! And, and uh, I've been listening and watching your new project that you have with KJ.

Johnny Juice:  Yeah, The Odyssy.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, The Odyssy. Will you tell everybody a little bit about that because that's all brand new and coming out.

Johnny Juice:  It's brand new. It's different. It's weird. He's like a 6'6" South African skinny Sting, like he has a Sting-ish type voice. It's weird, right?

Heather Newman:  He does! I've talked to him on the phone because we're going to do a podcast with you and him in a bit, but yes.

Johnny Juice:  And uh, and then, you know, he wanted me to do scratching on some of his solo stuff he was going to do after meeting him, the same people I met you through, Carl Jacobson.

Heather Newman:  Oh, get out of town!

Johnny Juice:  Yeah, through Carl and all that stuff and Cakewalk. He was a CEO of a company that made pcs for music. So, I bought a bunch of pcs from him. He left the company and he wanted to do his music again and instead of being, you know, a bass player like he normally is, he wanted to be the front man. So, he, I’m going to do a solo album. He asked me to do some scratching and some stuff I did, it was like, “Hey, you know, I need somebody to go on the road with me, uh, you know, anybody?” That turned into a "Hey! Let's be a group!" And then it turned into, "Hey you got any beats?" And you know, so it kind of graduated that way. So, I sent him some stuff and then it totally changed the trajectory of what he was working on. And it became this weird thing where I'm giving them these hard ass hip-hoppy beats that meet Electronica that also have some jazz and then you know, it's very musical. So even though the drums are hard on some hip-hop stuff and I'm doing some scratching, I'm mostly playing keyboard on it. I played bass on a lot of the stuff, and then I had Kevin replay it. Played percussion, some drums. And then he even got me singing background on a lot of this stuff. So, you know.

Heather Newman:  And you have a video coming out.

Johnny Juice:  Yes. We have a video called "Alone". It's on our website, theoddysy.com, t-h-e-o-d-d-y-s-y.com. We also have "Incantation", the first song that we put out, which is more drum and bass electronic-ish than "Alone". "Alone" is like if you took his vocals off, it'd be a rap record, well until the chorus because then the chord changes and stuff.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, it's layered.

Johnny Juice:  It does different. It's like a, it's like a jazz meets soul meets hard hip-hop plus, but his voice is so, so ethereal, it floats over everything. And it's a great combination. I mean it's different, you know, I mean everybody feels their stuff is great. I feel this stuff is unique. So, I think it has a voice and I think people could really, resonate with a lot of people because the subject matter is pretty much my life over the past two years. And maybe even Kevin, KJ's the stuff that he, he was able to tap into a lot of the pain I was going through with his lyrics and he felt musically what I was trying to say, and he did it vocally. Phenomenal mind reading skills for KJ and if you've ever been through a lot of pain at one time and didn't know why or knew why but couldn't stop it. Any of that stuff, you'll feel this album because it really, it really speaks to, you know, exactly, you know, the process that you go through with the ups and downs until you figure out yourself.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, I connected with it for sure. Yeah. And knowing you too, and, you know, us being friends and stuff like watching you go through this process, it's been, it's been really lovely, and I know it's been tough so it's, I love that you have something new that you're passionate about.

Johnny Juice:  Oh yeah.

Heather Newman:  You know, I mean you're passionate about everything but like, but, but you know what I mean, but like something that's able to take what you go through and I mean that's why we make art, right? That's why we share that, so that we all feel not so alone. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's exciting. And there's more album to come and more songs and that's coming out?

Johnny Juice:  That should be out at the beginning of the year. It was supposed to come out already, but we've had a few major setbacks. I lost my grandmother beginning of the year and that kind of set me back a lot. Then I also moved, that set us back and then we also had other things we were working on. It kind of pushed back a little bit. And plus, we have some guest appearances on the album, kind of pushed stuff back. Charlie Brown from Leaders of the New School, we have DMC, from Run DMC, we have Chuck D, we have Keith Murray. And then we reached out to Vernon Reid from Living Colour.

Heather Newman:  Oh wow.

Johnny Juice:  He may do a guitar piece. And then Davy DMX, the legendary Davy DMX, plays guitar on a joint, believe it or not, he was part of a group called Orange Krush back in the days. They did a song called "Action", but he also produced a lot of Run DMC's stuff.

Heather Newman:  Nice. Yeah. Speaking of, and we're gonna get KJ on and we're going to do one and go a little deeper into your process and stuff. So, you mentioned DMC, so fun fact, so I got another Microsoft gig where I was working for Massive, who did all the advertising inside of Guitar Hero and all of that. Right. So Guitar Hero 4 was coming out, and I had met Juice at a NAMM and I was in New York and I called him up and I was like, "Hey, I'm putting this thing together with advertising teams where we're going to make them teams, they're going to be bands, we're going to have a Guitar Hero 4 you know, contest." Right. And I had to find a venue and everything. And you remember I got that venue and then some crazy

Johnny Juice:  On the west side of Manhattan.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Well it was originally supposed to be at the David Copperfield place and then some crazy stuff went down, and the doors were locked and then I had to move it over to the Chelsea. I can't remember what that was. That venue.

Johnny Juice:  I remember the name of the venue, but I remember those moves and that venue was actually nice.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. I liked the venue too, but I talked to him and I was like, "Hey, would you think about being a guest judge for me?" Right? And you said yes, which was great. And I said, “So do you think you know, you can get somebody else?” And what you said to me was this, you said, "Yeah, yeah, I'll get you somebody else. I'll get D." And I was like, okay, who's D? And you're like, uh, Darryl. And I'm like again, who are you talking about? And you're like DMC, you know, Darryl, from Run DMC. I was like, oh, that was hilarious.

Johnny Juice:  And he loved that.

Heather Newman:  I know.

Johnny Juice:  He had such a good time.

Heather Newman:  He's a sweetheart and yeah, it was. So, it was just funny because we, we sort of knew each other but not so well that I knew who D was in your life, you know what I mean?

Johnny Juice:  You know, I have to, sometimes I have to, you know, I have to kind of step back and say, you know what? They might not know that I see these people because I've known them for so long.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, sure.

Johnny Juice:  I mean my daughter was calling DMC Uncle Darryl, right? She would tell everybody, you know, she knows Uncle Darryl and Uncle Joe, Run DMC. Right. So, she was, she was in elementary school, so she goes to the library, this is like second grade or something like that or something, they really go to the library, library. So, somebody pulls out a book and it's a Run DMC, it's a book about Run DMC. She's like, "Hey, I know them. That's Uncle Darryl and Uncle Joe." And they're like, what? Little kids are like, “What do you mean that's Uncle Joe? What are you talking about?” So, you know, so her teacher was like, you know, I think your daughter's telling like, you know, little lies, little white lies. Says she has an Uncle Darryl and Uncle Joe, and my daughter's like half Puerto Rican, half black. So, she's not as dark as Run and D. So, it's like, you know, she's saying that those are her uncles. I'm like, well they kinda are. And she's like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, so I explained and they're like, ohhh. So, it's real funny sometimes. I don't realize that they're, these are guys I just know.

Heather Newman:  Well sure. You know, you and I have been friends for close to a decade now. Like now I know who you're talking about when you say someone's name or their, you know, performing name or their DJ name, you know what I mean? I know who you're talking about now. But that was funny because that was sort of the first time we'd sort of worked together in that way and it was a, it was great. And he came out to Sonoma County a couple of years later because he does lectures as well. And so, he did a history of hip-hop lecture and I know does the Comicon stuff. And so yeah. So, it's been, it's been fun sort of seeing how people start off one place and then do all kinds of different things, you know. Do you have anybody you're producing right now that you want to talk about and tell people about?

Johnny Juice:  Other than the Odyssy, I'm producing Charlie Brown and Dinco. They're called New School Inc. Other than Leaders of the New School, I mostly only do Leaders of the New School stuff, I did an artist called HiCoup h-I-c-o-u-p, and he's an actual artist, artist. He actually paints, but he also is a phenomenal rapper. We did an album called Beast of Burden where every title has an animal in it. So, there's "Monkey Suit". There's "Crocodile Tears". There's "Booze Hound", you know, because he had a problem with alcohol at one time. So, all of the songs have a beast in it. And then the second side are all titles of songs that show what the burden of being a black man is supposed to be. So, Beast of Burden is that album. It's on the HiCoup, HiCoup's website, hicoup.com. But I'm also working with a, with a couple of film companies because I do movie scores.

Heather Newman:  You were telling me about the Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Tell everybody about that too.

Johnny Juice:  Yeah, I did, I worked on this movie called On the Shoulders of Giants for Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Uh, it was based on his book and it's about the first all-black or African American basketball team, pro basketball team called the Harlem Rens, short for the Harlem Renaissance, and they were attached to the Harlem Renaissance Hotel and Casino or whatever it was. So, these guys, and they had a black owner, so Bob Johnson, so a lot of firsts, you know, and they won a world championship and they whipped, and this before there was an NBA, you know, they would do barnstorming. They would go around the country and going into barns and play other basketball teams and they would whip them, you know, and they will do this while they would get tripped by the people watching the game or get people to try to stab them with stuff. And yeah, so there were, it wasn't just five on five, it was five on, on everybody. And these guys were ridiculous. And um, yeah, I learned a lot working on that and I got to work with Herbie Hancock, Wynton Marsalis, Will.i.am, Chuck, Bill Cunliffe. So, we got a few NAACP Image Award nominations for best album, which was me, best dual group collaboration, best documentary, won best documentary. So, it was a great process and working with Kareem Abdul Jabbar was great. Brilliant man by the way.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, and you've, I mean you have a Grammy and you've been nominated for Emmys.

Johnny Juice:  Emmy awards. I've got Platinum albums and all that and who cares? Um, I mean

Heather Newman:  You know, yeah, but I mean it's nice to be recognized by certain entities for your work. Right?

Johnny Juice:  I mean that's cool but sometimes those are all just a big popularity contest. I mean I'm, I'm in the Long Island Music Hall of Fame but I'm also on the education advisory board for them, which I find more important actually. And then the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction in 2013 and that's cool, but like, you know, like really? Who cares?

Heather Newman:  Well it's also about like, you know, getting to like have that experience with the other people, green room fun and you know what I mean, like meeting people and

Johnny Juice:  Hanging out with Tom Petty. I got to speak to him like, what? Half an hour, 45 minutes, never met the dude. Great Guy. And then of course he passed away recently. So, I got a chance to talk to him, you know, and those things I find more important than any of the accolades and other stuff.

Heather Newman:  Those sometimes lead to those cool conversations or things because you're in the same place at the same time because of something, something, something, you know.

Johnny Juice:  I was talking to David Grohl about him playing the devil in The Pick of Destiny, Tenacious D's The Pick of Destiny. Out of all the things we could talk about is like Nirvana, no. Foo Fighters, no. “Yo, so how was it playing the devil in The Pick of Destiny?”, “Oh, it was great, but 8 hours of makeup was terrible, you know?” So the regular conversations with people like that, agree.

Heather Newman:  I was telling you that he had, that Dave Grohl handed my Mama brisket last month and I was like, that is the coolest thing that I'm

Johnny Juice:  Mama, Mama brisket.

Heather Newman:  Mama brisket, I know for sure. So you know, you do so many things and I love it that you have such a passion for education and the lecturing and I've seen you spin and you spent you, um, that night at the Garage Band, you not only did the judging stuff but you were there, you know, doing your scratching and stuff and I guess, you know, like you're a master turntablist, like I watch you and I'm just, I'm always, every time blown away. Where's your, where's that happy place for you? I know you do so many things, but like when you're like, this is it, this is my jam. This is my element. This is my thing. Like what is it that you're doing in that area, you know?

Johnny Juice:  Yes. It's everything. My happy place is whatever I'm at where I'm at. It might be me scratching a record right now. It might be me going on a two-mile swim. It might be me sitting on a beach, might be me playing with my grandkids. It might be me playing with a nice young lady. You know what I'm saying? You never know. My happy place is whatever's happening at the time. I live my life going forward saying, you know, I'm grateful for whatever happens, and I try to be present as much as I can, which is essential for happiness and it's actually essential for being good at a lot of different things. You want to be good at one thing, fine. If you want to be good at everything, be present because if you're present, you concentrate on what you're doing and nothing else matters but that thing, at that time.

Heather Newman:  Yeah. Do you have maybe a piece of advice for people coming up in the world? I mean, I think you kind of just gave a heck of a lot of it, but anything else?

Johnny Juice:  Yeah man, don't listen to a word I just said. Go out there and find what makes you happy and when you find it cultivate it, get good at things. Learn. Never stop learning. I mean anything else, that doesn't matter. Never stop learning because when you stop learning, that's when you start dying.

Heather Newman:  Yeah, for sure. Well thank you for talking to me.

Johnny Juice:  Thank you.

Heather Newman:  I know. I'm like, we've been talking all, for a while anyway.

Johnny Juice:  This was actually part eight of a 2,000-part series.

Heather Newman:  An ongoing conversation with Hedda and Johnny Juice.

Johnny Juice:  No doubt.

Heather Newman:  Awesome. Well y'all. Thank you so much honey. I appreciate it. And everyone that's Mavens Do It Better podcast again. Have a beautiful day and more soon.

Johnny Juice:  Peace.

Heather Newman:  Peace. Bye.