Episode 19 of the Mavens Do It Better Podcast features Matthew McDermott. Matthew is the Office 365 technical guy on the marketing team for Spanning Cloud Apps. A 13-time Microsoft Office Apps and Services MVP, he spends his professional time working to build best of breed solutions for Office 365 and Azure. Matthew is a speaker, content author, blogger, and specialist in SharePoint, Office 365, and Azure technologies. An accomplished photographer, cook, and bartender in his spare time, Matt spends as much time with his wife as his dog will allow.
Matthew and Heather caught up in their home offices over the airwaves.
Listen in as Heather talks with Matthew about:
What it means to be and what is a Microsoft MVP
What it means to be a consultant in technology
Living in Austin, traveling and connecting with people all over the world
Follow Matthew McDermott at:
Heather: Hello everyone we're here with another episode of Mavens Do It Better and I'm so excited to have a wonderful friend and colleague on today, Matthew McDermott, who I'll, I'll give a little bit of a bio on him because he's so amazing. And He, uh, first of all, you're a 13-time Microsoft Office Apps and Services MVP, so 13 y'all. That's a huge number.
Matthew: It is kind of a weird number because they did a little hiccup in the middle so some of us got kind of a cycled the second time, but um, but yeah, that's pretty crazy.
Heather: That's right. Sometimes the second cycle is what you need, you know, for sure. So anyway, I just adore him and we got to catch up together in Copenhagen at the European SharePoint conference and we got to talking and he to me is a maven of many things, but definitely, you know, the consulting world and being an MVP and working with clients and customers and so wanted to have him on to talk a little bit about that and what sparks him and you know, the typical stuff we talk about on our podcast. But I thought it would be a fun conversation to have with you to talk about all that sort of thing and. Oh yes. Oh No, I was getting there. Don't worry. We both have a love of the furry creatures of the dogs sort. And I love watching your wonderful world on social media with your dog and it's so wonderful. So anyway, say hi to everybody will ya? Yeah
Matthew: Hi everybody! heather, thank you so much for having me on. It was awesome catching up with you in Copenhagen and, and I've been a huge fan of your podcast for a while, so I'm glad you. I'm glad you agreed to have me on.
Heather: Absolutely. And uh, you have such a much fancier setup than I do. You look wicked professional over there.
Matthew: That's my, that's my, my big podcasting microphone that I use for doing my desktop recordings and stuff like that. But yeah, it makes me look like a sportscaster, a sports announcer.
Heather: I know, I'm like, I'm about ready to hear "And he's going off!". Absolutely. So, so I guess you've been a consultant for a long time and worked with tons of clients and stuff and will you talk about some best practices and things that you've learned along the way? Um, in doing so because I, I know you've got such a great rich career around that
Matthew: I'd love to. I'd love to. I, um, so I moved to Austin 20 years ago and prior to that I had worked as an independent consultant. Um, I was writing code and helping customers with database issues and stuff like that. And this was back, the Internet was new, people figuring out how to use the web was new and so there was a lot of different things that, that um, consultants could get into. And, and I was hired by a consulting company here in Austin and I ended up working there for 12 years. Was a fantastic experience for me. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about it is the CEO at the time, he would do this, this formal boot camp and it was a full day indoctrination into the culture of the company. And it, it, it really wasn't technical. It was really about, yeah, there was the usual, how do you fill out your time sheet, how do you do this, how do you do that? But easily the first four hours of the class or of the boot camp was about the culture of the company and making sure that people could fit into that culture. Um, the thing I was proud of is that, um, after I got into search and rescue with my dog, we would come to boot camp, my dog and I, and, and, and be part of it. And so we would get to train all of the new, we would get to talk to all of the new recruits as they come in. And so as the company grew, we were in multiple cities and this whole notion of how important company culture is, was really ingrained into people. And what I would talk about is what's the special thing that you bring? What is your, you know, if you're the best cookie baker than bring cookies. If in my case, I was a dog trainer and in my spare time, I train, raised and trained search and rescue dogs and she and I would go work. We worked after Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Rita, Hurricane Ike, we worked for the FBI. We did a, um, a, a, a super-secret thing down on the border to try to help out with some drug cartel stuff that was unrelated to the drugs, but it was related to helping to find people and it was fascinating work. Had absolutely nothing to do with being a consultant, but the company embraced that. And that's really why we came and talked during boot camp is because I would come in and say you guys got hired to be accountants and consultants and programmers and developers but that's not really why you're here. Why you're here is what lights your fire, why you're here is that special thing that makes you, you. For me, it's search dogs. So the company embraces that. So don't be shy. Tell people what the thing is, that's special to you and embrace it. Enjoy it. And so being a consultant for me was something I was very passionate about. I love being a consultant. Now I'm out of the consulting world and I'm ecstatic about being out of the consulting world because I'm enjoying a new challenge, you know? And it's been, it's been crazy because I'm working in, duh-duh-duh marketing.
New Speaker: Hey, how you doing?
Matthew: So, it's too bad we don't have any synergy anymore because I'm in marketing now.
Heather: Oh, come on. What a cool thing though because I think it's something that is so, it's not, I don't even want to call it basic but in a way it's, you know, sometimes you work with people for 20 years or 10 or whatever and you have no idea who they are or what, what drives them, what their why is, you know, why they get up out of bed every morning, every morning. And that it's, it's a cool thing that you got exposed to early on in your career.
Matthew: It is, it is. It's really something that has at the time, it definitely changed me. It's something that I, you know, a lot of people would say, oh the boot camp how about that. And I was like, you know, that was really important to me because it's, I, the reason I travel, it's not to go see a city, it's to meet people. I would be much happier in a, in a wild rainstorm, sitting in a pub in Haarlem talking with the people there than a beautiful, clear pristine day in walking around the churches. It's that human connection constantly that, that drives me. And that's my why, right? That's why I travel. Sure. I go to conferences and I speak and do all that stuff. But the thing that I love to do is I love to connect with people.
Heather: We share a why.
Matthew: Two whys. Now we have dogs and people.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm all about spreading the joy like peanut butter on a really good piece of bread too.
Matthew: Yeah. I always felt, I've always felt that I'm the ambassador is that, you know, when I hear people say, you know, you're, you're that American guy that was here last year. You know, like when we, we, there's this, there's a bar that we love to go to in, in Haarlem. And the first time I met the guys that run the place absolutely fell in love with them and they keep. It's really fascinating. They have a book, so when you come in and you place your order, they don't ring you up, they have a book and so they write something in the book and they keep track. And the second time I was there I said, can I see the book because I've noticed that you guys look through the book and then you ring out one number on the cash register when you're done. And he kind of looked at me, kind of sheepishly like, why do you want to look in the book? And I said, I want to know what you call me. And he goes, oh, that's easy. And he turns it around and I took a picture of it and posted it. It says the American. Okay. That works
Heather: To be clear. You're talking about Haarlem in the Netherlands? Not Harlem, New York City.
Matthew: In the Netherlands. Yes. The original. The original Haarlem. That's right. The original Haarlem outside the original Amsterdam. Because New York was New Amsterdam and Harlem is Harlem. And so I was The American in the bar. And it was hilarious that, that they kept track that way. And so I said, next time I come in, I want you to write my name. And so, and I didn't say it in a bad way, I just said it, that I want you to get to know me so that when I come walking in, so now year after year we go in and um, and the guys in the bar will see me, they get ecstatic that we're back, that my wife and I are back and they greet us like we're friends. In fact, a year ago when we were there, we came in, got greeted just like, we were long lost brothers, came in, got hugs from all the bartenders. They knew what, they just brought us our drinks because they knew what we drink. And we sat down and this couple came over and said, well, so do you live here? Very American accent. And I said, no. I said, no, we just come to visit and we love these guys. So, um, this is like at that point, this is like our fourth visit. And I said, we just made friends and we catch up once a year and it's fun and, and the wife says, well, because we've lived here for a year and they don't greet us like that. So she and her husband had moved there to work for one of the big companies and um, and they ride their bikes, their kids go to school there, you know, and, and so riding your bike in, in Harlem and all around Amsterdam is the thing to do, like 25 percent of the vehicles on the road are bicycles. And um, and so it was just really funny that, that they had noticed that they, the way that we had gotten greeted and it was really fun.
Heather: Yeah. No, that's awesome. Yeah, there is something to going back to places, and I do the same thing. I, I am lucky enough to travel a lot for work and speaking and all of that. And I love going back and visiting places and friends and staying with friends. I'm lucky that I get to stay with people a lot instead of, I try to opt for that instead of hotel rooms. I would rather be really good guest and do dishes and cook and give a nice gifts and, and stay with people and get to know the, you know, get to know their worlds, you know, for sure. So.
Matthew: Well it's, it's such a, it's, it's the way you learn the culture. You don't learn the culture going to the American restaurant and going to the top rated restaurant on yelp. You learn it by going down the back alleys and finding those niches. And then by going back, there are a lot of countries and places I've been that I have not returned to but I would like to. But I part of the vacation for me is resting my mind on not having to learn a new place, but getting to go deeper into places and then going back in different seasons is huge. Haarlem in June is very different than Harlem in November. Um, you know, the market is out and, and all the fresh food is out during and all the fresh flowers in the spring and summertime is amazing and you just don't see that side of it in the wintertime. So that's another fun way to go back to places.
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. I've been to Amsterdam many times now and different seasons, same thing with Copenhagen, you know, like Christmas markets versus the springtime and all of that and I think that's something that, you know, getting to work in technology or in any industry, but especially in technology. Then also becoming an MVP and having the opportunity to be asked to come and do things. You know, I think that's a big honor and also a real, I guess it's a lovely perk I guess of that too, you know, that you do get to go experience and bring different elements of technology to different people in the world and learn about, you know, when I'm doing the diversity work that I do in conjunction with technology, you know, it's a different conversation in different places. It seems same as far as like everybody being equal and human and wonderful, but it's also, there's different nuances to it. We saw that in Puerto Rico and having that conversation and with Allister and Melissa and holding a panel there and having that be like, how do you shift the conversation to make it so that it's relevant to them and um, poignant and all of that that, that you're not laying down something on top of people that are like, Hey, Puerto Rico's wicked diverse. We're already, we come that way. You know what I mean? So I think, yeah, very lucky. And so, you've been an MVP for 13 years will you talk about that and maybe how that program's evolved and changed, and what that’s like?
Matthew: the, the MVP program, probably the single most confusing thing to folks that don't know the program is that it's not a certification. There's a lot of people that'll say, well, this person is a certified MVP. And it's like, well, it's not, it's, it's an award. It's an annual award that Microsoft, um, bestows upon individuals who, work in the community. Now it's tied to a technology as you know. And so originally my original MVP was I was a SharePoint MVP, so that was a server product at the time, it wasn't in the cloud, there really was no cloud. but it was a, it was along those lines. So back, back then, there are, there are still, but there were PowerPoint MVPs that were Xbox MVPs, there were, um, I don't think there were any notepad MVPs, but we do make fun of some of the older people in our group that are were the MVP of Fire and uh, um, MVP of fire and MVP of notepad, things like that. So it's evolved into fewer categories across, broader, across a broader swath of technology. And usually it's aligned with the technology. So, in my case, since I talk a lot about SharePoint and Office 365, um, I am according to Microsoft an Office Apps and Services MVP. And um, and now what I'm doing, I'm working as a, I'm the principal technical marketing engineer for Spanning Cloud apps and we build a cloud to cloud backup solution for Office 365. We have two other products. We have one for one for Salesforce and one for G-Suite, but I focus on the Office 365 side of things.
Heather: Okay, that's cool. So with, so you, you work, so enterprise, small, medium business, do you run the gamut? For the most part?
Matthew: I do, I, I, I'm proud of saying that I don't turn away, I don't like to turn away anybody. So I've worked for, I've worked for sole proprietors that are trying to get their, um, their businesses into the cloud. They're trying to really, what they're trying to do is they're trying to sleep better at night and trying to figure out how the cloud can help them do that. So I'm actually launching a new, um, a new session this year. I think I'll be doing it. I'm almost positive I'll be doing it in Austin SPTechCon for the first time in February. And um, it's, it's called "Your Business Isn't Too Small for the Cloud" and it touches on what small businesses can use the cloud for. how it can save them money, even though it does cost money, it can still save you a lot of time, a lot of hassle and help you sleep better at night, you know, because you're, you're protected. The customer that I'm thinking of, we went from all of his stuff in boxes and file cabinets, to stored on his laptop. And if he ever lost his laptop he would die. To a point now where he doesn't have any paper files and everything's in an Office 365 or some other app or some other cloud app. And if he loses a laptop, it doesn't matter. He goes back to Best Buy, buys another version of that laptop, logs in, gets into Office 365 and he's up and running in an hour. And that's crazy considering where he came from. So. So those are the kinds of things that I like to do. And then we'd take that all the way up to the enterprise. Right? Is it 200,000 employees and you're trying to, you're trying to find something. Search is another passion of mine. a friend of mine asked me the other day, is there any coincidence that you're a search dog handler and you like to do search? So with my, with my cohort, my, uh, my partner in crime, Agnes Molnar and I, we've been running search workshops. Just finished one up in, uh, in Orlando and we'll be doing our next one in Branson, Missouri at the North American Collaboration Summit if you're, if you go to the North American Collaboration Summit site, they just launched our, it's a silly little promo video, but it's, I think it's hilarious because we were sitting outside in Orlando freezing, absolutely freezing, trying to do this video and we're very under caffeinated and um, and we just decided to sit down on the curb and knock it out and uh, and it came off kind of silly, but it's fun.
Heather: That's awesome. Yeah, she was my second podcast that I did.
Matthew: I know, I know. Search maven.
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it was, you know, it was nice to um, you know, uh, learn, uh, uh, on a couple of friends where I was like, I'm figuring out equipment and doing all that kind of stuff. And so yeah. And Tracy from a ESPC and Agnes were my first victims if you will. Ha, ha ha,
Matthew: those were good, I liked those. Those were good podcast. They came out really well.
New Speaker: Thank you. Yeah, no, absolutely. So you know, you, I know that, you know, you have the search and rescue that you do and I know that you're a cook and a bartender and all of those things. I see the pictures and all of that. Um, I don't know where, where do you go and get away for inspiration or what things do you like to kind of, find that work life balance? I think we don't talk about mental health and burnout enough and we work in such fast paced environments with a lot of pressure. And how do you, how do you unplug? You know?
Matthew: Well actually for me it's really easy. I live in Austin, Texas and the subdivision that I live in is adjacent to the Barton Creek Greenbelt and so, so I can have Ruby off leash in about five minutes and we can go for seven to 10 miles in one direction without running into, without running into any, we'll run into people because it's a beautiful place. Even on a weekday there'll be folks out there mountain biking and stuff like that. But um, right now the creek is full and so Ruby gets to swim and she loves to jump in. So she'll do these epic huge dog jumps and chase sticks and just, she, she has a great time and I cannot, I can't be thinking about stress while I'm watching this dog just absolutely revel in nature. So that's how I unplug a lot of times. It's also behind my camera. that's kind of my creative outlet is I love to take photos and uh, and maybe in the show notes we'll throw in my Instagram account and I'll, uh, I'll show that. But um, yeah, so those are kinda the two things that I like to do the most. I love to cook, I love to eat, I love to mix craft cocktails. A friend of mine does out, does a podcast called the Bar Reviver and that kinda got me re-inspired to learn how to do some of these classic craft cocktails. And that's a, that's a real fun one too.
Heather: That's awesome. So maybe another technology question. I think, you know, we've, we're, as you were talking about the person that you got, you know, from having things on their desk and you know, in files and then finally into their laptop and then into the cloud. We've seen Teams explode onto the scene here. And how are you finding clients adopting Teams?
Matthew: I think it's a mixed bag. It's kind of funny. The company I'm working at now, we are not an Office 365 shop. We're a Gmail, Slack and um, and assorted other cloud-based services that we use to manage all of our projects. And it's really fascinating to see how effective you can be as long as those technologies are ingrained in a little bit of awareness and um, and ingrained into appropriate communication channels. So, for instance, I've been working on some PowerShell and getting the PowerShell module together for my company, right? It's part of it's part of something our administrators can use to be able to manage their, their accounts a little bit better. And my first question was I'm getting ready to do the recording and I'm thinking what, what resolution should I use so I can just jump on Slack, I can see of the people I know can answer the question, which ones are online right away and I can just ping them and then I can know that that conversation is stored somewhere so I don't have to go plow through email and go find it. And it's the immediacy of that communication. Whereas yesterday in a meeting we were talking about what we're going to be doing for 2019 and that's not as, that's it's, that's more sticky. That takes a little longer to figure out so that, the result of that communication are coming to us in email. And so I think that as long with Teams and with Slack, with a lot of the new communication channels that are being thrown at us as long as companies are using them in a way that is appropriate for the type of communication that's occurring. Um, I can give you another example. The, uh, the video that Agnes and I did that started out as a request on a Facebook, Facebook messenger and then fast became, wait a second, can we move this to email because I'm not going to be on my phone trying to read 27 pages just because you're on a browser and you can paste in your huge message.
New Speaker: You can always tell if somebody is on a browser with WhatsApp or whatever. And I type really fast anyway. But people are like, I cannot keep up with you because I'm on my phone and I'm like, okay, fair enough.
New Speaker: And there's. But there's also the stickiness of it too. If you're going to send me four links to things that I want to be able to review later, having to remember where I saw those things. Email ends up becoming the,` sort of my permanent record of that. And even if I get somebody that says, Hey, can you do this? Yes, I can do that and I or we want to change the project`, this is another good one, we want to change the project and the subtle way, can you change it this way? Well, if that's an a Teams channel instead of being in an email so that I can make it an official record of the project that it's a change, then it becomes a bigger challenge. And so as long as folks understand how to switch context and understand where one thing goes versus the other. one of the things I love about both Teams and Slack is the integration with third party tools. So if somebody breaks the build, then then that Bot can push it into the Teams channel where everybody can see, oh my gosh, we've got a broken build, and then someone else can say, okay, that was on me, I broke it, I'll get on it. And so right away you have, again, it's the immediacy factor of knowing that, that the communication is taking place in the right place.
Heather: Got It. Yeah. Are you a SXSWer, since you live in Austin?
Matthew: so, I did the first three original SXSWs because the company I was working for at the time had a sister company that was a survey tool and as a result we were doing the marketing surveys for south by, so we got free tickets and that was great. That was great. So we saw some really amazing bands, but I'm not a crowd person so I don't, I don't do the big festivals. I like the small more intimate venues like Continental Club and a 1 to 1 Bar and stuff like that in Austin. Those are fun.
Heather: I went to SXSW. I've been a few times, but I think my first one, it was in, I think it was 1990 it must have been or 93, something like that. Why? I can't even remember when it started. Is it? That's probably around the time that it got going.
Matthew: Ninety-three I think it was. I think. I don't know exactly, but I think it was around back then. Yeah. They're coming up on a big anniversary and now it's two weekends. It used to just be a three day festival.
Heather: Yeah. Well, and it's sort of a launch point for so many things now. It used to be just the music, you know? I mean, but yeah, I, I. There was a bar on sixth street.
Matthew: Oh, and you know what I was thinking of ACL. You're talking about south by.
New Speaker: Oh yeah, yeah.
New Speaker: you're right. Yeah. I was talking about ACL festival south by obviously it's been around forever and you know, so, and it's much more. It's music, it's film, it's interactive, it's the, in fact I was, I was the Microsoft guy on a content management panel on the interactive side of things and that was hilarious. We had a lot of fun with that. We had a lot, because the guys that I met with, they were, you know, they were Open Source and Drupal and, and all these other CMSs that I'd never heard of. And so I was the Microsoft Guy, you know, it was hilarious. We had a really good time.
Heather: I know is I think sort of back in. I mean, I've been in and around for about 18, 20 years and the Microsoft space too, and for, you know, different places in different settings, you become the Microsoft person, you know, because you're the one person in the room and so not only do you get the, the Microsoft Gal, but you also get, Hey, um, and they hand you something, you know, a device. You become the IT department for everybody in the room. Do you remember a bar called the Bates Motel on sixth street at all? It was, it was a divey, divey, divey place and um, it was one of those where it was like musicians and then people would walk in with their instruments and then sit down and be like, hey, we need a horn. You know, we need a sax and we need a whatever. But I remember it was that they played an endless loop of the movie Psycho. Know, on one of the televisions. Yeah, that place just stuck in my mind. I don't think it's there anymore, but I think that was just one of those 20 years ago, small divey bars in Austin. That was kind of awesome. So
Matthew: there's, there's a number of bars that have been, that were here when I, when I moved here and have gone by the wayside that are part of, part of a, like a, um, so Antone's kind of came and went because of some issues that he had legally, but Antone's is back. And then um, one of my favorites was the Zona Rosa and as some of the best, absolutely most amazing music concerts, um, small venue, mid-sized venue. But I saw Richard Thompson was five feet away from him while he was playing Vincent Black Lightning. Kev-Mo, several times. Kev-Mo is just astounding. And some other artists like Robert Earl Keen who's a local, he's actually Bandera but Austin calls himself Austin because he was discovered on KUT. And stuff like that. So, and like Joe E Lee, ran into Joe E Lee, I was interviewing for a technical role and I was the interview-er. And so part of it is taking the, taking the candidate out to lunch and meeting them and I'm sitting there and Joe E Lee sits down at a table next to me and I was an absolute rabid fan of his music. And so finally I walked over and I said, this is going to sound really lame, but I absolutely love your music. And he goes, Nah, that's not lame at all man, that's really cool. That's really cool. Thank you. And I said, I (break in audio) sharks. And he's like, I totally remember that. That was down at Green Hall, man. He was nuts. Greenhall. We had to climb in and out of the bathroom window because there's no back door to that stage. It was awesome. It was so funny. Absolutely hilarious. But that was all that was Clay Pit over by UT. So yeah, I love this town because even though it's, it's very much grown up and it's real different than it was 20 years ago. It's still a really good place to be from. You know, it's, it's, everybody knows Austin and a sort of instant acceptance when people find out you're from Texas and then ultimately from Austin it's fun.
Heather: Absolutely. That's super cool. Well, you know, do you have any. I don't know how you, you have, so like you have so many things, are so amazing and working with clients and stuff do you have any parting thoughts, I guess on people like just dealing with and working with folks, you know?
Matthew: Man, so I, I guess I have kind of my big three when you're thinking about working with a consultant. One of the first things is don't ask me how much I cost because it's silly, right? So how expensive are you? Oh, wow, that's really expensive. Okay. Well it's the wrong conversation because you need to understand how I can help you and, and you have to be careful of those people who go, oh, I can do everything. So that's why I'm this expensive. I never said that because I know that I can't. That's why I worked with five of the guys that were really good at all the stuff that I sucked at. And, and they love doing that other stuff like business intelligence, not me, you know, I don't, I don't have a brain for that kind of thing. So I did a lot of work around search. I did a lot of work around architecting farms and stuff like that. And, and for someone to call up and say, Oh yeah, we had a consultant in here and he was terrible. So we're looking for another consultant. It says more about you that it was terrible then the consultant who left. Now there are really horrible consultants out there. I get it, but you're in a new relationship. You're on your first date and you're talking about how your last date was such a train wreck. It's not the information I want. Right? It immediately throws this whole relationship into doubt. And, uh, and I think the other thing, and this is, this is one of the tips that I give to young consultants that are thinking about getting into the business and that's, that change happens no matter what the project is, change is going to happen. People are going to swap in and out of a project and you have to be able to be resilient and get around that. But there's a ripple effect to change. And so when you're, when you're thinking about your project, no matter what the project is, don't think three years down the line because the software is going to change in that time. You've got to be thinking in smaller iterations and then plan for that change ripple effect. And so one of the things I always talk to my customers about is the cost of a change. It's really inexpensive before we paint your house to change the color of the paint. Oh, once I'm halfway through painting your house, it's going to be much more expensive. And, and understanding that, that as soon as you think there's a change, let me know, send up a flare. So that I know there's a possible change coming and we can evaluate it and go with it, but if I'm done painting your house and you're ready and I'm ready to take a check from you and you say it's the wrong color, then we have bigger issues. And so you know what, what Sam used to say was clients are never trained to be clients but you're trained to be a technologist so you've got to work with the customers and the customers have to learn to work with you. So I think the biggest tip I have, it comes back to why you and I are such good friends and that's communicate. Just be people, you know, I didn't come in here because I thought I could screw you over from a, from a consulting perspective. That's not why I started this project. But if you think that's the case then then we have bigger issues than just the technology. So, Communicate, communicate, communicate.
New Speaker: I agree. And I think that that not only applies to a business proposition. But I think that's very astute from life. You know, something comes up, talk about it, right?
Matthew: One of the things I tell people is that my father was a consultant, he was a business consultant for years and my mother's a marriage family, child counselor and I use her skills in my business more than I use his.
New Speaker: Empathy is where it's at. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's a good place to close out our chit-chat. Oh, thank you so much for being on. It's just lovely to talk to you anyway and catch up with you again and thank you for being on the podcast. I appreciate that.
Matthew: Well, I love talking with you, Heather. We can do a whole dog one later on. We can do dog mavens. That'll be awesome.
New Speaker: Dog Mavens. I love that. Okay. We may have to actually like, I'll, I'll hit record on the video so we can have some dog action in here.
Matthew: That would be really fun.
New Speaker: See Miss. Thing, so for sure. Well that was our Consultants Maven for sure. With Mr. Matthew McDermott and everybody that's another episode of Mavens Do It Better. Hope you have a great day. Bye.