Heather Newman: Hello everyone. Here we are again for another episode of the Mavens Do It Better podcast where we interview extraordinary experts that bring a light to our world. I could not be more excited to have a wonderful, wonderful artist on today. Carron Little and she came to me from dear friend Alison Gerlach out of Chicago. And, so we've been sort of chasing each other a little bit and I'm so excited to, you and I are busy women, so we're trying to get on a podcast and hello and thank you for coming on today.
Carron Little: Well, thank you for inviting me, Heather. Thank you so much.
Heather Newman: Absolutely. So you know, I know that, you know, Alison works, you know, in the Chicago cultural world and you do as well and you know, you're an artist in your own right and an educator and all of that. And how did you and Allison meet? I think that'd be fun for folks to know.
Carron Little: Yeah. So, actually it was at a conference that the Department of Cultural Affairs organized called Public Heart. And we were both attendees. But I had, I'd heard of her through a mutual friend of mine and, and the work that she's doing, so I was already familiar and I think, you know, because we both work in public performance as well, you know, there was, uh, a synchronicity there already in terms of the work that we're doing and our philosophies as well. So yeah, that was the, the spark to the beginning of the friendship.
Heather Newman: That's wonderful. Yeah. She's one of my dearest friends in the whole world and we're always saying, oh my goodness, you need to meet this person or have them on your podcast and all of that. We do a lot of sharing of goodness. So it's always, a big shout out to you, sweetheart. Yay. And you're the founder of Out of Site Chicago. Will you talk about that a little bit? I know that's your company.
Carron Little: Yeah. So, I started Out of Site and 2011 as a means of, um, really taking culture, uh, to the streets and, um, bringing, taking culture out of the museums and into public space and, and engaging the public and dialogue, in critical discourse. So we create, we prioritize interactive public performances because we're interested in like really facilitating a direct conversation with the public and people that wouldn't normally enter a museum context and really thinking about. And, and the other thing that I did was also to think about creating a funding structure, uh, to support artists in their practice. Because at that moment in time, a lot of performance artists in the city were working for free and not feeling, um, very supported. So, so it was also to create a support structure and then as part of that funding structure to also invite international artists so we could really build the performance dialogue, um, beyond the city and create opportunities for local artits and, um, facilitate more diverse conversations about practice with relationship to performance. And, um, yeah, really thinking about how public, you're breaking. I mean, what's quite unique about Out of Site is the methodology that I've used to facilitate the public performances. So we have a steward team who are in place to facilitate a critical discourse with the public. And, um, there, there as a support between, like a mediator, between the artist and the public because often, you know, when you come across performance art, it's like this weirdest thing happening on the streets. Um, so, you know, we really wanted rather than just confront people with the shock of what they are seeing, we really wanted to create space where they would unpack it and uh, create, you know, create a conversation to go deeper, um, into the ideas that the artist is thinking about and investigating.
Heather Newman: Right. That's great. I mean, so you're, you've created a methodology and I love it that you're advocating for, you know, fair wages and, and that's part of, you know, you're, you work in sort of public art policy as well in the city of Chicago as well.
Carron Little: Yeah. Yeah. So I sit on, I was invited on to the arts committee for Wicker Park Bucktown in 2010. And I've really, you know, from the get-go, I, um, created policies, um, and advocated for all the money to go directly to artists. Prior to that, often the money that is allocated to the arts and the neighborhoods was going to like one consulting firm. And, um, so we, uh, so I really like, we started creating RFPs so people knew we had the money. You know, so really putting in the basic infrastructure to make sure the artists knew about the opportunities and could apply for funding, but then also creating, um, minimum amounts. So, um, thinking about what does it cost for a muralist to, to live and produce the mural that might take two weeks or a month, you know, it's not just about paying for the materials. You've got to pay for the labor time and for their living expenses while they're doing the work. So really kind of, so I lobbied a lot in the early days, um, to create a minimum, um, in terms of our budgeting, uh, which, uh, we've raised over the years, I'm happy to say, cause that's an ongoing conversation about how we, how we kind of increase our wages with the rise in living standard. You know, and um, so and then also, and then when I was artist and resident for the cultural center, I thought, well, as artist and resident, I should, I could actually kind of write some policy. Although I was doing my work. I was like, oh, I could also like advocate for others so then I, one day I just happened to sit down and write this paper of all the policies that I'd created for the neighborhoods. And then quite, um, accidentally I went in to rehearse that evening at the cultural center and the deputy cultural commissioner said to me, ooh Caron, could I have a paper with all the policies you've written for Wicker Park? On my desk by tomorrow morning. And I was like, okay, actually I just wrote it today. I quickly went home after rehearsal, edited it and sent it over. And then they adopted those policies, you know, within the next, you know, within months. So, you know, I do think it's really important that artists sit on funding committees. I'm the only one sitting on our committee. And so often now I'm in the position where they'll look to me to actually decide how much something is funded.
Heather Newman: Yeah, I mean, yeah, even, you know, art is, I, uh, I was a theater major in Seattle, but I think, I think we talked about this or you know this from Alison, is I grew up outside of Chicago. And so when I was a teenager, I would, um, tell my parents I was going to go to the mall and I would drive into the city and I would go to the art institute and I would sit in the impressionist room and stare at that Paris Street, Rainy Day, beautiful painting and the Chagall Windows. And I, you know, like I wasn't, you know, back in the alley, I was at the art museum. Um, but I do think, you know, there's a,
Carron Little: My kind of woman.
Heather Newman: Yeah. There is a business to art, you know, and there's policy and all of it. And I do think I agree with you 100% that, you know, if we're not in positions to make the rules and make the, you know, policies, then that's left to other people's hands. And we know what happens sometimes when it's left to other people, you know. So I love that, you know, you're an artist, but you also obviously, you know, it's another gift that you bring to the world as an artist of the business of the art, right? Or the business of being an artist. And, and I'm sure in part of your education and teaching and all of that, that's something that goes along with writing poetry and doing, you know, performances and all of that. And that's, that's really cool that you found your way into that, you know. Even with like all the sudden somebody asks you, do you have it? And you're like, I wrote it today. That's amazing.
Carron Little: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I am, I was either going to be a politician or, or an artist when I was growing up. And I think I was, you know, I was trained in public speaking when I was 10 years old, which was kind of crazy. And I think, you know, my parents, you know, really wanted me to go into politics in some form and, you know, but I was never happy with the didactic nature of politics. And then I saw that art was something and culture was something that could really kind of engage in this mutual conversation. It wasn't about converting, but it educated people, or it was, uh, a more, um, you know, gentle invitation to go deeper into ideas. And I think that's why I kind of decided to be an artist because I didn't want to go down the didactic road and be in the position where I was having to persuade people to agree with me. But I kind of believe, I do believe in the power of art to fundamentally change culture over time. You know, it is, um, it's a long road.
Heather Newman: Yeah, no, that's for sure. I mean, and we stand on the shoulders of many giants, you know, in those, in that change, in that revolution, in the, you know, hearts and minds of people. For sure. I want to, um, I want to ask you, you mentioned your parents and, you know, I can, first of all, I could listen to you talk for like a week done. I am an Anglophile of epic proportion and a will you talk about, um, where you're from?
Carron Little: So, it's a long story actually, but I'll try and keep it brief. I was born in North Carolina, believe it or not, to Scottish parents. My father was one of two people selected to take an exam and the person that got selected from Scotland would do their PhD at Duke University. So my father, um, was selected. He was a theologian. And, um, I popped out the day after my mum finished typing my dad's PhD. And so yeah,
Heather Newman: Like one does because all those, every marriage and partnership and relationship, right. It's all, you do it all together. That's super cool. Wow. Okay, neat.
Carron Little: And then, uh, we moved back to the UK, to Scotland and then, then from Scotland, we moved to Devin and then to the north of England. And then I got into Goldsmiths in London, so I went to London. . I've only met one other person who speaks exactly like me and she grew up in America, lived in Glasgow, and then lived in London. So, we've kind of done the same, but opposite.
Heather Newman: Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, cool. Yeah, I love, I love it. I was like, ahh. Alison was like, you're going to love her accent. You're going to like, I know, I know, I know, I know. I love it. Music to my ears. Um, and, and you know, you, uh, we were talking earlier before we jumped on recording and we were just starting to talk about, um, this really cool project that you're working on The Spare Rib and then some, some of the pieces of it. And I would love it if you would share with our listeners what that project is about. I think that would be great. I think they would love it.
Carron Little: Yeah. So, um, for quite a while I've been writing poetry inspired by interviews with the public and, um, so I'm currently working on a project called Spare Rib Revisited where I'm invited by different cities to, uh, visit and interview women between the ages of 20 to a hundred. And, and after interviewing the women, I write poetry inspired by the interviews. And you know, I think when, when you're working in the way in which I work, it's really, so whenever I arrange with a city to go and, uh, do Spare Rib Revisited, I always ask the hosting producers to organize a performance because it's really important that I first share, um, the personal stories and, and the poetry that comes out of those conversations and that, um, future participants, um, actually get to see how I share people's personal stories and the kind of combination of how that transforms into poetry because it, it is, um, it's kind of, it's unique and it does take, each poem is constructed in its own lyrical form. So
Heather Newman: Yeah, I mean, you're writing something based on, um, a person's life and their story. That makes tons of sense. Right. So that's so cool. And, um, you had recited a poem, uh, to me earlier and I was wondering if you would talk about that experience and that poem a little bit and maybe give it to us for our listeners to hear too. I think that would be amazing if you would. Yeah.
Carron Little: Yeah, sure. So this poem was written for our Sylvia Hickens and Sylvia, uh, designed the pattern for the pink pussy hats that went viral for the woman's marches. And she's a long term activist and she's really focused on the health of women's bodies. And, um, she's a poet and writer. And part of this poem talks about a performance that she organized, um, to protest the potential closure of the only hospital that is dedicated to women, uh, that is in Liverpool. And it's the only woman's hospital in the whole UK. And Margaret Thatcher, um, tried to close the hospital in the 1980s. And Sylvia Hickens was really important in terms of, she organized the protest to keep that open. And, um, and she's also, she was also part of, um, so both Reagan and Thatcher had these lists and I know they existed under McCarthy as well, of people that were, um, you know, on the far left or radical. So Sylvia Hickens was also on Thatcher's list. Uh, so you know, it was, I think a Tony Blair, uh, revealed all the names on that list in the early two-thousands. But, um, this, this poem is for Sylvia Hickens and it's called The Long Road.
Carron Little: If my body were bound between two sleeves of book jacket, what would it see? Would it perform out of the page or would it remain stitched between the sleeves hoping to reach persparity stamped in different languages? If my body were you, what would you see? Would you dance on army tankers in the fresh morning dew or chant harmonies at Greenham Common and write dreams on pillow slips. Would you look the policeman in the eye who defied humanity as he stabbed me in the left shoulder with a sharp metal fork? Would your body be a witness to history stitched with the scars, marking the deep, sending viral news stories across media channels? Would your body listen to that visible spectacle wearing an orange jacket, flashing alarm bells marking the targets? Would your body bear witness to the violence of history past down the line of a ring tone written in Morse code the war won the war lost. It's all the same when the bombs drop. Killing our children, destroying our homes. Lives lost in the wreckage. Would your body, listen to the ghosts in this city. Would your body listen to the needs of this city. Walking and numbers, performing in silence. Wearing white doctor's coats, counting hospital beds. What does your body need? What does it need? Stitched between pages and words, if not liberty, a life dedicated to tomorrow. Tell me, what does that look like? Tell me. Speak it, tell me. Speak it
Heather Newman: you made me cry again.
Carron Little: Oh, that's really moving, thank you.
Heather Newman: Oh, thank you. Oh my goodness. It's like a, it's so drippy and dreamy of, of, of and so powerful. And then liberty. Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, wow.
Carron Little: Yeah. Well I think really I was really thinking about, um, you know, how writing is also a form of liberty. And I listened to, I listened to the Women's Hour daily podcast on the BBC and, um, they were talking about, how we're not going to reach pier equality until 2167. So I was like, oh gosh. A lot of work to do.
Heather Newman: Yeah. Wow. That's, that's too far off. I mean it's always been too far off, I guess, you know, but, um, wow. Yeah. I, and your process around this and these, so you sit down with someone and you have an interview and you speak with them and then you create the poem. Yes.
Carron Little: Yeah. So I, um, I've developed a process. I've noticed that if I take written notes, um, I actually am able to formulate the structure of the poem. It starts to kind of build in my head. I mean, some take, you know, some take days to write, I mean, every poem takes a while to edit, you know, and they go through and you performing the pieces actually kind of helps refine. That piece was actually a lot longer. And through performance workshops, I've kind of trimmed it down. But, um, yeah, there's, um, you know, definitely writing notes during the interview helps me formulate the structure of the poem. And then because there's this direct relationship between the hands and the brain. I think Albrecht Durer talks about drawing being linked to the precision of thinking. And, you know, I'm really interested in how this kind of, I always use a pencil and I have notebooks, special notebooks with special paper, you know, and it's, uh, yeah, definitely. And then after that process I do a lot of research, and then often in the morning I'll wake up and I'll have a rough draft and then I'll be able to work on that for the rest, you know, for a might take a day or it might take a week.
Heather Newman: I, yeah, I, I, you know, I have my own quirky things that, you know, I don't even know if it's quirky, but it's just if you're a writer of like the pen, the paper the you know, and I actually have found, I do both with, I write on my laptop, I love a program called OneNote. And I write there and I write in different things. It sort of depends, you know, but we all have our, I don't know what feels good. I love it that you mentioned Durer because uh, there's a, the, do you know the, his drawing, uh, the hare, it's about the rabbit. The one of the rabbit.
Carron Little: Yes.
Heather Newman: That uh, that's always hung in my parents' home and it was one of the things and I told my mom, I was like, do not sell that in a garage sale one cause I want it, you know, cause she's a big garage saler. But I was like, but I was like, how did you pick that? You know? And cause she's, you know, she likes art and stuff, but, you know, she was like, I don't know, I just thought the rabbit was cute and I was like, okay, perfect. You know? And it was always something in my, in my home when, as a kid, you know, and then I went and found it so I could, you know, see it, um, in the flesh one time too. So that was kind of cool. But yeah. So, wow. I think it's so cool what you're doing. Um, and uh, so with the Spare Rib Revisited, how many cities have you actually done this in?
Carron Little: Um, so I'm, I was in Lucerne, um, in Switzerland in 2016. And, um, then they invited me back last year to perform in, their spoken words festival called Words and, and then I did it in Liverpool last year. And then I'm hoping, I've just received an invitation to go do it in Athens this year. So we'll see what happens with that. So
Heather Newman: That's super cool. That would be awesome. And obviously, have you been, you've been doing it in Chicago as well? Yes?
Carron Little: Ahh, well Chicago, I'm still waiting for Chicago to fund me.
Heather Newman: Well Chicago. We have a message for Chicago, my hometown get on it.
Carron Little: So, I'm hoping 2020 will be the year. You know, because it is, um, a special year for women. So it would be amazing if we were a go for that,
Heather Newman: I know I've been finding, you know, I, um, I, I was in England, um, last month and I took a trip to visit a friend in Manchester and I hadn't been there before. Um, and I got a moment to go over and, um, go to the Pankhurst's house there. Um, the, you know, started the suffragist movement and that was pretty special. Um, and I don't know, you know, it's, it's interesting. When you talk about story in poetry, I think, you know, it's like the artist's job and writer and theater, you know, is to one to tell stories but also preserve stories. Right. Um, do you find that you feel like in the last bit with everything that's been going on with all the different movements, you know, are you feeling that sort of women's stories bursting out in Chicago and there's more call for that sort of thing? Or what are you feeling about sort of that whole movement, um, as an artist?
Carron Little: Um, well I think it's, um, you know, it's still, um, a struggle, you know, in terms of, you know, really, um, creating this space for a women's voices, and women's stories to be heard. I think we're still, I mean, there's a lot of phenomenal organizations in Chicago that are doing great work. And, but I did ask, you know, we, uh, lobbied the, the cultural commissioner to like, you know, really get behind next year's. You know next year is the centennial of women's suffrage in America. And we really, we're hoping that this becomes a big dialogue, you know, across America as well. You know, but you know, at local levels in cities, uh, because I think, you know, there is, um, systemic inequality here. And you know, there's the pay issue, there's the economic stability of women, but then, you know, that that also kind of manifests itself into a whole other, you know, whole other realms of, of issues that, uh, women are facing in their personal lives. So I think we really have to, um, you know, the whole idea of equality really needs to be, um, looked at, uh, at local levels and institutions need to personally reflect on how they are on the pay equity issue. And I think if we can start getting that right, I mean, I know in the UK that they just, um, had this, um, survey where they're, they're forcing all the companies throughout the country declare the salaries of women, of everybody in the company so that they can analyze where, you know, where there is inequality. And the BBC were the first people to do that. And they were, they were very embarrassed.
Heather Newman: I know, I saw that. So, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that's, when you don't, when you can't see something, you can't address it necessarily. Right. I mean, and kudos to them for coming forward and, and doing that and hopefully that'll bring more, more people, you know, and watching the US you know, or watching the FIFA, watching the World Cup, watching the soccer team, you know, there's all of it. It just, um, hopefully more and more of that will come, especially with next year coming, you know, it should be a celebration and also at time for us to have a bit of a reckoning I think of how we treat each other. And I speak a lot in the technology world on diversity and inclusion and women and I find that, you know, like people do want, are looking to help and looking to change and there's ally ship all over the place. But I, I do feel like one, it starts with each of us as an individual, but it also starts with companies stepping up, you know, and saying, we want to address it and look at this. Right.
Carron Little: Yeah. And it's not about like placing blame or, you know, being negative about it. It's just like, okay, we need to address, you know, we need to move forward. We need to, um, you know, create a world where, you know, people are thriving and striving. You know, I mean, it's not about. So, you know, and I think there has been a collapse, you know, especially, you know, when we look at academia, I think there's a, a large conversation happening across the country about how the majority of the part time labor force are in fact female or woman academics. And um, you know, there's a college in California that has 92% that are part time. And you know, where I worked at the art institute, you know, it's 70%, and you know, the rise of the part time labor force, you know, is having, uh, you know, we really have to be realistic that this is having a detrimental impact on the stability of the economy as well. Because when people, you know, I mean there's so many ramifications that are happening, but on the good point, I mean I could,. You know, I sit, I also sit on the National Women in the Arts Committee and we were able to, for the College Arts Association, which is an art history organization in America. And we voted unanimously for the conference next year that comes to Chicago to dedicate 50% of its programming to women and women identified scholarship and artistic practice. And we just found out this week that that's happening and that's gone through. So that's a huge, the fact that the organization supported that petition to move forward with that policy is, is wonderful.
Heather Newman: That's so great.
Carron Little: Step-By-Step.
Heather Newman: Yes. Inch by inch, step by step for sure. And what a, I just love what you're doing and what you're bringing to the world. It's so cool. Um, you know, I, I usually ask at the, at the end about, um, sparks, I'm, I'm very interested in moments, micro moments and the macro moments of our lives. And, and also what if there was a moment or a person or a, something that, that sort of led you down the path of like, yes, this is what I want to do with my life. Is there something that comes to mind that you wouldn't mind sharing with our listeners? Your spark?
Carron Little: Wow. Gosh, there's, there's
Heather Newman: I know there's always a lot, but you know, everybody's like, are you, are you kidding me? It's like asking me my favorite food. But you know, like,
Carron Little: Yeah, you know, there, I guess, you know, my, both my parents, you know, my where, you know, political activists and, you know, were very influential in terms of, you know, my life, both brilliant people. And so I think, that there was a moment, um, where I was, I've been still in touch with, um, all of my professors from Goldsmiths in London and they've been super supportive of my career my whole life. And, um, I used to live down the road from the critical theory person, Peninnah Barnett. And she said, she rang me up one day and she said, Carron, I've got a ticket to a conference called Sex, Shame and Sexuality at the Tate Modern do you want to come? And I was like, Oh yes, that sounds interesting. Sex Shame and Sexuality. Wow. It's organized by the Freud Museum. That sounds interesting. I went along. And then, you know, it was really one of those, the Tate does some great conferences and then I was invited to a lunch with Grizelda Pollack, Peninnah Barnett, and the director of the Freud Museum. And I think maybe there was one other person and it was one of those moments where I'm sat around the lunch table with these like phenomenal women and I'd been teaching, I'd done my degree, my masters, and I'd been teaching in London for, for like seven years, maybe at that point in high schools. And I said to myself, wow, you know, I've been educated by these women. I've been brought up by feminists even, you know, the, I take that I go out into the world and, and do things. So that was a moment. And then it was wonderful because I was walking across the Millennium Bridge and Jenny Holzer had a public art work projected onto Saint Paul's Cathedral. And there was the words, um, there was, um, the text, um, in Urdu, that means peace and you know, there was like god, you know, and she, and there was just all Allah and just all of these, um, these words that, you know, were speaking about peace. They were speaking to different religions. And so, you know, that was a critical moment. And actually what was special, uh, when I went and did the Spare Rib project in Liverpool, it was right after the, the bombings, um, at the Ariana concert in Manchester. It was, it was very, it was like within, like, I think I arrived like 10 days after the bombings and I was invited. And then when I arrived in Liverpool, I was, um, speaking with, I met some Asian women at an event, at a luncheon or a dinner, and they invited me to a meeting at the local mosque. And so I'm sat around this table and the table was like 50 feet long, you know, I mean, it was a long table and five women were sat at one side. All the men were sat at the other side. And I sat myself in the middle and, you know, I just listened. I was there to observe the conversation and listen and you know, at the end of the conversation, um, you know, they wanted my, uh, perspective. And everybody who spoke, spoke with intelligence and thoughtfulness. And because I grew up in the north of England, I'm various astutely aware of the hatred that is perpetrated to, uh, young Asian children growing up in the schools and the systemic racism that is so prevalent. Um, and particularly in the, in the north of England where there are large, um, Indian and Pakistani populations. And, you know, I spoke, I just, you know, I spoke about this at this meeting and you know, and I, you know, to share my perspective that, that if we, when we treat others with so much hatred from a young age as they're growing up into the world we're going to inspire angry young people. Who then do join ISIS and become terrorists. So we really have to think about, you know, how are we putting care into our institutions to care for young people at an early age as they grow up through the systems. Or through our societies. You know.
Heather Newman: Absolutely. It sounds to me like there, there was some sparks, but there continues to be and it's great to hear that you're a person that is one providing a table, you know, for people to sit at and to learn and to hear different stories and that you are also, you know, being asked to be part of tables where those kinds of dialogues are happening in our world. You know, that's, I think that's really important. Ah, wow. Um, I'm so blown away by all the good things that you are doing. So, great. Um, and, and maybe to close out what's, what's next, what's next on your plate, speaking of tables?
Carron Little: So, I, I'm doing Out of Site, um, at the end of July and in Chicago. And so we've got the Swiss artists, uh, Patric Gehrig & Saskya Germann and Sojourner Zenobia and, uh, Wannapa P-Eubanks and um, Anna Brown and um, Erin Evans Delaney who are doing, and it just kind of so happens that all of their interactive performances are really thinking about these ideas of care and how we, um, the, the Swiss artists are going to be singing the public's, uh, blessings in, uh, in this ancient Swiss tradition of the Betruf. So that's going to be fun. So, um, creating public performance and then hopefully off to Athens and I've been invited, um, to Budapest in August and I'm going to be running a whole series of workshops on interactive public performance and performing and giving artist presentations. And then after that I'm going up to Riga, Latvia, to do a public performance there and give a presentation.
Heather Newman: So, you're a busy lady.
Carron Little: A lot of travel and meeting fun people.
Heather Newman: Yeah, no, I am a, I am a traveler myself, so I have friends in Budapest that I'm going to make sure and connect you with too, so that,
Carron Little: Ooh, that would be lovely. I'm actually, I do want to go to, I've got 6 days between, um, Sofia and Riga, so I do want to stop in Budapest and Prague on the way.
Heather Newman: Oh, lovely. Yeah. I'm going to go to Prague in December for a technology show and I've never been, I mean, I can't wait to go see the, all the Mooka, you know. Yeah, absolutely. Well, cool. Well, um, Carron, thank you so much for being on today and sharing your story with, with all of our listeners. I really, I am so, and that poem, my goodness. Thank you so much.
Carron Little: Well, thank you Heather, for inviting me. You know, it's special to have the opportunity to talk to you and uh, yeah, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing, you know.
Heather Newman: Yeah, yeah. It's, um, we mirror, we mirror goodness in each other I think, you know, when we're doing this kind of work and I just thank you for that and, and thank you for what you do. And, and you'll probably see Alison before I do, so you have to give her a hug me, so
Carron Little: I will give her a big special cuddle.
Heather Newman: Perfect. I love that. Even better. That's awesome. Okay, well thank you Carron. And um, yeah, absolutely. So everyone, um, we'll put all the goodness, um, in the show notes, links to things, and so you can find you on the Twitterattis and LinkedIn's and all that kind of fun stuff. And, uh, this has been another Mavens Do It Better podcast or you can find us on iTunes and Stitcher and Spotify and our website and all the great places where you listen to podcasts. So here's to another beautiful big blue day on this spinning sphere. Thank you.